J.D. Hall
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They also did some whining about Trump not trusting the nation's intelligence services, at least not as much as Trump trusts Vladimir Putin and Julian Assange.

http://us.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politics/russian-hacking-hearin...

Here's a quote from the hearing:

Sen. John McCain, R-AZ wrote:
"Every American should be alarmed by Russia's attacks on our nation," the Arizona Republican said. "There's no escaping the fact that this committee meets today ... in the aftermath of an unprecedented attack on our democracy."
 
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J J
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So I suppose "hack" has now lost all meaning.

Really - what is it that people think that word means? Anyone who actually works in IT is forbidden to respond, I want to know what everyone else thinks it means.

Especially those who nod along to recent claims that Brexit was "hacked" (you know - the referendum carried out entirely by paper and pencil).

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Just to be clear, this is the same batch of folks who swore up, down, and sideways there there were WMDs in Iraq?

Uh huh.





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Grand Admiral Thrawn
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Can anyone post some source links about this?
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Chad Ellis
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Ferretman wrote:
Just to be clear, this is the same batch of folks who swore up, down, and sideways there there were WMDs in Iraq?


Actually, no. These were intelligence officers. While they certainly made errors in Iraq, the swearing that there were absolutely WMDs was done by politicians over the objections of analysts who raised serious doubts.
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Pete Goch
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Drew1365 wrote:
Quote:
no doubt Russia hacked election


What do you mean by "hacked election"?


Why are you such a moron?
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Quote:
no doubt Russia hacked election


What do you mean by "hacked election"?


Why are you such a moron?


Actually, Drew is making a valid point. What is meant by hacking here? Because over 50% of Hillary voters believe that the Russians actually changed votes from Hillary to someone else. i.e. hacking the election.

This is different than hacking emails and exposing embarrassing information to sway opinions.

Both are bad - but one is certainly worse than the other.
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Pete Goch
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The question has been asked and answered numerous times. Is he such a moron than he still needs to ask it?

If he has objections to the use of the word "hack" in this context wouldn't it make much more sense to simply state them rather than asking moronic rhetorical questions?

I suppose he's just trolling as per usual...
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Chad
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
The question has been asked and answered numerous times. Is he such a moron than he still needs to ask it?

If he has objections to the use of the word "hack" in this context wouldn't it make much more sense to simply state them rather than asking moronic rhetorical questions?

I suppose he's just trolling as per usual...


If the question has been asked and answered so numerous times - why do Clinton voters still believe it?

But yes, Drew is trolling.
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Utrecht wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Quote:
no doubt Russia hacked election


What do you mean by "hacked election"?


Why are you such a moron?


Actually, Drew is making a valid point. What is meant by hacking here? Because over 50% of Hillary voters believe that the Russians actually changed votes from Hillary to someone else. i.e. hacking the election.

This is different than hacking emails and exposing embarrassing information to sway opinions.

Both are bad - but one is certainly worse than the other.


So what did they do? Hack voting machines? Or type password to get into podestas emails?
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
Just to be clear, this is the same batch of folks who swore up, down, and sideways there there were WMDs in Iraq?

Clapper is, specifically, the man who swore under oath that "the NSA does not collect information on American citizens". Despite perjuring himself at that time, he suffered Zero professional consequences when the truth came out later.

Brennan is, specifically, the man whose station got slagged in Saudi Arabia, who was considered impossible to confirm in 2009 because of all of his compromised background and political baggage, and yet who sailed through congressional confirmation in 2013 without any real discussion ... after the months of coverups and lies about American operations in Libya and Syria across 2012.

Quote:
Actually, no. These were intelligence officers.

You'll find that there were plenty of "intelligence" officers who parroted the party line about WMDs after it became the party line. Some analysts privately disagreeing that it should become the party line doesn't change that the fact that officers joined the warmongering chorus once the hymn began.

Quote:
While they certainly made errors in Iraq, the swearing that there were absolutely WMDs was done by politicians over the objections of analysts who raised serious doubts.

You'll find, if you go back to the actual lines at the time, that the Administration was very lawyerly and manipulative about what it asserted. Rice would say "we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud", while no one would ever say that there was convincing evidence of closeness-to-nukes. Same with the yellowcake BS: he's "actively seeking it" without any evidence that he's anywhere close.

It was the exact same kind of innuendo rush-to-judgment, and war drum beating by McCain and other NeoCons, all while refusing to deeply discuss actual evidence.

And once that decision became the party line, you will also find that "intelligence" officers and the head of the CIA and the national security adviser were more than happy to parrot that party line as media "sources", and that the media was more than happy to talk about the war as an inevitability that everyone-who-mattered supported.
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Jon Badolato
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
Just to be clear, this is the same batch of folks who swore up, down, and sideways there there were WMDs in Iraq?


Actually, no. These were intelligence officers. While they certainly made errors in Iraq, the swearing that there were absolutely WMDs was done by politicians over the objections of analysts who raised serious doubts.


You're correct. It truly is amazing how so many people to this day believe that the intelligence community was telling Bush that there were WMD's in Iraq. I'm not sure why so many are still so misinformed.
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Pete Goch
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Drew1365 wrote:


So when I see someone here using the same questionable term, I want them to explain what they mean. If they mean "e-mails were released" that's not "election hacking."

To those who insist on using that phrase: STOP LYING.


No, they mean that emails illegally hacked by a hostile foreign government were released. Thus hacking the election. A bit cutesy, perhaps, but accurate enough in that sense.

Now, if we want to talk about lies and the lying liars who lie we can talk about how Trump voters believe that Trump won the popular vote because of his lie about illegal aliens voting in the millions.
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:


So when I see someone here using the same questionable term, I want them to explain what they mean. If they mean "e-mails were released" that's not "election hacking."

To those who insist on using that phrase: STOP LYING.


No, they mean that illegally hacked emails were released. Thus hacking the election. A bit cutesy, perhaps, but accurate enough in that sense.

Now, if we want to talk about lies and the lying liars who lie we can talk about how Trump voters believe that Trump won the popular vote because of his lie about illegal aliens voting in the millions.


It is not "hacking the election" - it is influencing the election (again bad) Hacking the election is if they changed actual votes. But because people insist on using imprecise terms, you have situations where again, over 50% of Hillary voters think the Russians actually flipped votes from her to Trump.
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Chad
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Drew1365 wrote:
Utrecht wrote:
But yes, Drew is trolling.


What have I ever done to you?


Nothing personally, but can we not agree that you take on a rather acerbic personality on the boards? Get more flies with honey than vinegar and all that....
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
No, they mean that emails illegally hacked by a hostile foreign government were released.

Then they need to provide evidence that a hostile foreign government:
1) hacked those emails
2) released those emails

So far, *crickets* on both counts, just repeated assertions by known-liar and eternal-warmonger McCain, known-liar and eternal-warmonger Graham, known-perjurer Clapper, and known-liar-to-the-camera Brennan.

Quote:
Thus hacking the election.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. ANY evidence of a hack taking place (as opposed to a leak by an insider) continues to be lacking, let alone any evidence that the alleged "hack" came from Russia (rather than, say, China or France or Iran or Israel or a private party routing through a Russian VPN).

Quote:
A bit cutesy, perhaps, but accurate enough in that sense.

It is accurate in precisely No Sense.

There is not yet any evidence of a hack having happened, let alone of that being routed to WikiLeaks, let alone happening "because Russia", let alone originating at Putin's command.

Despite those months of a continuing lack of any evidence, this fake news about "Putin hacked Trump's election" is literally the only topic the MSM echo chamber can talk about regarding foreign policy right now. It is a domestic brainwashing narrative, just as much as the lie-us-into-a-war-with-Iraq stories about Saddam's nukes were a domestic brainwashing narrative.

Quote:
Now, if we want to talk about lies and the lying liars who lie we can talk about how Trump voters believe that Trump won the popular vote because of his lie about illegal aliens voting in the millions.

Tu quoque is a logical fallacy, if you are attempting to make a persuasive argument.

The topic of this thread is week number six of "muh Russia" from the Obama Administration and the warmonger brigades of the Republican Establishment.
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jonb wrote:
It truly is amazing how so many people to this day believe that the intelligence community was telling Bush that there were WMD's in Iraq. I'm not sure why so many are still so misinformed.

1) Because Bush and company lied about it constantly, as did trusted people like Powell and Rice and Cheney, as did warmongering senators like McCain and Graham and Clinton.

2) Because plenty of those "intelligence" officers were willing to be anonymous media "intelligence" sources and echo the claim afterward.

3) Because no one in the "intelligence" community was raising a large public stink about it that ANYONE in the mainstream media was giving even 10% as much coverage to.

It was a domestic brainwashing operation. It succeeded.
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Steve K
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Drew1365 wrote:
Wait, this is the same link that some other dude posted today. I'll say the same thing I said there:

James Clapper whining that nobody trusts the intelligence community is the height of irony.


The dictionary can't keep up with Clapper.
 
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Les Marshall
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Drew1365 wrote:
Wait, this is the same link that some other dude posted today. I'll say the same thing I said there:

James Clapper whining that nobody trusts the intelligence community is the height of irony.


Not nearly as ironic as the party of Reagan in the hands of a Putin apologist.
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Wendell
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It's here; you can read it. Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent Elections


With a note: "This report is a declassified version of a highly classified assessment; its conclusions are identical to those in the highly classified assessment but this version does not include the full supporting information on key elements of the influence campaign."

Among the things included in the classified version would be actual names (or detailed descriptions) of sources in Russia. Omitted so that the Russian government doesn't, you know, kill them. And techniques used. Omitted so that the Russian government can't, you know, counter them.

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This was a guy who worked in the Reagan, Bush, and Bush administrations.
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Darth Thulhu wrote:

Quote:
Thus hacking the election.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. ANY evidence of a hack taking place (as opposed to a leak by an insider) continues to be lacking, let alone any evidence that the alleged "hack" came from Russia (rather than, say, China or France or Iran or Israel or a private party routing through a Russian VPN).


Absolutely. This is the key. So far only conclusions have been "released". The only "evidence" released was of an older piece of malware created originally in Ukraine that is generally available. The conclusions of the intelligence reports have gone as far as to state that Putin himself ordered state resources to launch cyberattacks in a directed effort to assist Trump in the election. However, so far it seems that the conclusion is based on a string of "must have" assumptions, such as "if anyone in Russia was involved, Putin must haveordered it". This smacks of another round of "analysis" that starts with the desired conclusion and works backwards to cobble together suggestive pieces of "evidence" to support that conclusion. It appears more and more likely this is WMDs in Iraq all over again.
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JasonJ0 wrote:
Especially those who nod along to recent claims that Brexit was "hacked" (you know - the referendum carried out entirely by paper and pencil).



Well the meaning of the words hacking and hacker changed drastically in the early to mid 80s to begin with. Originally it was to do with the programming culture not breaking into computer systems (aka cracker). In one sense it even predates that hacker (computer programming) culture and reaches back to the Tech Model Railroad Club of MIT and hack was often used for pranks such as reprogramming the card stunts at American Football games.

I have no problem in including social engineering as one of many hacking techniques.
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A good article by a seasoned Russia-watcher expressing scepticism at the intelligence report:

Kevin Rothrock wrote:
[...] the U.S. intelligence community revealed nothing new on Friday, repeating conclusions already publicized by the White House and officials like U.S. National Intelligence Director James Clapper. [...]

Unfortunately, America’s case against the Kremlin suffers from some major flaws that should be acknowledged, even by individuals who argue reasonably that the Russian government likely used hackers to attack and undermine democratic institutions in the U.S. [...]


The article points out how a large chunk of the report examines the propaganda activities of Russian-state television, yet ironically largely takes the propagandists' self-image at face value. Most importantly, however, it argues that the report uses some very eccentric means of determining Russian intentions, for example Vladimir Zhirinovskii's delight at Trump's win---despite the fact that nobody in Russia takes Zhirinovskii seriously at all.
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So Donald Trump is not really a legitimate president. He certainly does not behave like a legitimate president. The man behaves as if he is beholden to the Russian leader, almost like maybe he is being blackmailed, or maybe he actually paid the hacking Russian hackers who hack, to hack the election. It would be awful if anyone ever found out if that were true, but maybe it is, who knows? Draw your own conclusions, but we do know for a fact that Trump asked the hacking Russian hackers who hack, to hack up some missing emails for Hillary.

It would have been a lot more fun to watch Trump flail about in his rookie year as a politician if he were legitimate. Now it just leaves me with an uncomfortable feeling, kind of like I just got hacked.
 
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