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Eldritch Horror: The Dreamlands» Forums » Rules

Subject: Skids O'Toole + Composed = I no longer fail tests ? rss

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meles meles
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Does it mean I no longer fail tests ?
 
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Emile de Maat
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You'll still fail tests, as you can only use Composed to reroll the dice once.
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Darby Harris
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Also, say you roll 3 dice, and get 2 2's and a 1, then you can reroll the 1 because of skids, but then you might still fail with that reroll. But now can you use composed? You have rolled a 1 during the test, does it matter that it has since been rerolled to something else?
 
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Erik Miller
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You don't resolve the test until after you reroll the 1's, so if you roll the 2,2,1, reroll the 1 and get a 3, you resolve the test with a 2,2, and 3 as your total, so then you could reroll all 3 dice using Composed once, then use Skids to reroll any 1's that you rolled until you finished with your "final" dice set to resolve the test.

So it could go:

2, 2, 1
Reroll 1 to a 3
Use composed to reroll all 3 and get 1, 3, 4
Use Skids to reroll the 1 to a 3
And your final result to resolve the test would be 3, 3, 4. You have no 1's, but you failed the test, so you would flip composed.



Anemone1777 wrote:
Also, say you roll 3 dice, and get 2 2's and a 1, then you can reroll the 1 because of skids, but then you might still fail with that reroll. But now can you use composed? You have rolled a 1 during the test, does it matter that it has since been rerolled to something else?
 
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Emile de Maat
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Anemone1777 wrote:
Also, say you roll 3 dice, and get 2 2's and a 1, then you can reroll the 1 because of skids, but then you might still fail with that reroll. But now can you use composed? You have rolled a 1 during the test, does it matter that it has since been rerolled to something else?

To determine if you can use Composed, you look at the result as it stands now. So, if you rolled a 1 before but rerolled it, and it is now a 2, you can use Composed to reroll all dice.

Likewise, if you're not playing with Skids, you could use the Lucky Cigarette Case to change the 1 into a 2, and then reroll all dice using Composed.
 
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Darby Harris
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Right, it's the "when resolving a test" that makes the difference. I was thinking just "during a test".
So it's obviously a very strong combo but still possible to fail tests.
 
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meles meles
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Could you clarify why I can't just reroll forever ? Where does it say on Composed that I can only reroll all die once ? I'm not sure what the "resolving" part means, and translators are going to mangle it anyway.
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Le Roux Van Der Vyver
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With meles meles on this one.

Other cards and abilities state once per turn/test restrictions. The rules state you can reroll your dice as many times as you have rerolls. So in theory you just won't fail.
 
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aurelian
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"When resolving a test" provides the trigger, and the effect can occur only once per trigger.

(For comparison, this point was much discussed in an old thread about the Axe, where similarly you can only use that weapon's effect once per combat encounter.)
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Krzysiek Domański
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sthill46 wrote:
"When resolving a test" provides the trigger, and the effect can occur only once per trigger.

(For comparison, this point was much discussed in an old thread about the Axe, where similarly you can only use that weapon's effect once per combat encounter.)
Exactly. We had this dilemma discussed and answered some time ago.
The relevant rule is "If an effect does not list a limit, it may be used only once per instance of the triggered event."
In the case of Composed the "event" is "resolving a test". For one resolving of a test you may apply Composed effect once.
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Mark Bauer
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haroth9842 wrote:
sthill46 wrote:
"When resolving a test" provides the trigger, and the effect can occur only once per trigger.

(For comparison, this point was much discussed in an old thread about the Axe, where similarly you can only use that weapon's effect once per combat encounter.)
Exactly. We had this dilemma discussed and answered some time ago.
The relevant rule is "If an effect does not list a limit, it may be used only once per instance of the triggered event."
In the case of Composed the "event" is "resolving a test". For one resolving of a test you may apply Composed effect once.

In comparison to Skids, whose trigger is "whenever you roll a 1".
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meles meles
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Yes, Skids is clearly not limited because of the "whenever" word.

So what's left is calculating the probability - how does Composed influence the chance of passing a test (with Skids) ?

Normal chance of passing a test with 1 die: 2/6 (~0.33)
Normal chance with 2 dice: 1 - (4/6 * 4/6) = 5/9 (Because 4/6 is the chance of failing a test) (~0.55)
Normal with 3 dice: 1 - (4/6 * 4/6 * 4/6) = 19/27. (~0.70)

Skids turns all dice used in tests into 5-sided dice essentially. "1" may as well not exist because you can always reroll it.
1 die with Skids: 2/5 (~0.4)
2 dice with Skids: 1 - (3/5 * 3/5) = 16/25 (~0.64)
3 dice with Skids: 1 - (3/5 * 3/5 * 3/5) = 98/125 (~0.78)

Now when you have Composed with Skids, it always enables you to reroll all dice in a test. I'll try with 3 dice:

Taken from above, chance that Skids succeeds a 3 dice test is 98/125. Therefore chance of failure is 1 - 98/125 = 27/125. I need to calculate
1 - (27/125 * 27/125) = 1 - 729/15625 = 14896/15625. That's about ~0.95.

============
How would that be for anyone else (with 3 dice) ?

Hmm. For Composed to kick in normally, I need to roll 2/3/4 on all dice (1 blocks it, 5 or 6 succeeds so it makes it pointless). So that's 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/8 chance of just getting an extra reroll! Not too good.

But that's as far as I can take it. I might need conditional probability for this, and I'm a bit rusty at the moment.
 
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Simon C
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The numbers you've got look correct, but note that the last calculation of 1/8 is the chance of a non-Skids 3 dice test not rolling any 1s AND still failing. So you've git a 0.7 chance of passing, a 0.125 chance of failing but being able to reroll and a 0.175 chance of failing without being able to reroll.

The reroll then has a 0.7 chance of passing, so the total chance of a pass is 0.7 + 0.125 * 0.7 = ~0.79. So a non-Skids character with three dice and Composed and no other effects is about as likely to pass a test as Skids is with the three dice and without Composed. On the flip side, Skids with Composed and 3 dice is extremely likely to pass a test.

He has a very strong passive!
 
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meles meles
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To give you an idea, Blessed non-Skids character, no Composed:
1 - (1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2) = 1 - 0.125 = 0.875 (exactly).

Moral of the story: Skids O'Toole + Composed is much better than a Blessed character!
 
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Erik C
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b0rsuk wrote:
To give you an idea, Blessed non-Skids character, no Composed:
1 - (1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2) = 1 - 0.125 = 0.875 (exactly).

Moral of the story: Skids O'Toole + Composed is much better than a Blessed character!


Seems reasonable, skids is better than a normal character, skids with boon is better than normal character with a boon.

That said, the blessed boon has a chance to go away each reckoning (about 95% in my experience). Composed has a low chance to go away and tends to give you a benefit when it does.
 
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John Anderson
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haroth9842 wrote:
sthill46 wrote:
"When resolving a test" provides the trigger, and the effect can occur only once per trigger.

(For comparison, this point was much discussed in an old thread about the Axe, where similarly you can only use that weapon's effect once per combat encounter.)
Exactly. We had this dilemma discussed and answered some time ago.
The relevant rule is "If an effect does not list a limit, it may be used only once per instance of the triggered event."
In the case of Composed the "event" is "resolving a test". For one resolving of a test you may apply Composed effect once.
it seems like this should be listed on the card. Other cards list the limits (once per turn, etc) so since this one didn't we played it as unlimited. Adding (once per test) would make it more clear, not take up much room, and take a rule out of the book/faq.
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Krzysiek Domański
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puck71 wrote:
haroth9842 wrote:
The relevant rule is "If an effect does not list a limit, it may be used only once per instance of the triggered event."
it seems like this should be listed on the card. Other cards list the limits (once per turn, etc)
Other cards list the limit when it's different than the default limit.

puck71 wrote:
Adding (once per test) would make it more clear, not take up much room, and take a rule out of the book/faq.
"Much" is a very subjective word. Look at the amount of space there is on the small cards. In my opinion "once per test" is a whole lot of space for such a small card.

Also compare the
"When resolving a test, if you do not roll any 1's, you may reroll all of your dice."
to
"When resolving a test you may reroll all of your dice."
Does it still look like you could apply this effect unlimited number of times per test? If so, you could reroll infinitely, until you get the desired result.
And I have only removed the restriction of rolling 1's. The rest of the text haven't changed.
If this simplified version isn't sensible to apply unlimited number of times, then it's even less sensible to do so for the original restricted version. A restriction can only limit the frequency, not increase it.
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Stephan Beal
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b0rsuk wrote:
Could you clarify why I can't just reroll forever ? Where does it say on Composed that I can only reroll all die once ? I'm not sure what the "resolving" part means, and translators are going to mangle it anyway.


The 5th bullet point in the Conditions section of the Reference Guide says:

Quote:
If a Condition’s effect does not list a limit, it may only be used once per instance of the triggered event.


fwiw, i missed that in my first Dreamlands game and just kept rerolling.
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