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Subject: Volley + Limited Ammo + Multiple Weapons rss

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Marwan Marwan مروان مروان
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I have a question on how to resolve an attack with a Volley weapon.

As an example, let's use the Allies Thunder (P-48X Pelican) Aircraft:




You can see that the Medium Rockets weapon has Volley and is restricted by Limited Ammo with two boxes. This weapon has a 2 x next to it on the card's weapon line.

How is an an Attack action resolved? Volley Attack action? Sustained Attack action? Sustained Volley Attack action? To make things even more fun, the weapon has a double splash/flame symbol so the dice are doubled for each miniature under the template or in the area effected by the weapon.

This is how I interpret the attacks mentioned above against one enemy vehicle:

1) This weapon can only be used to attack twice for the entire duration of the game (regardless if each attack hits or not) until it is rearmed (Ammo Drop)...Does Ammo Drop work on air craft?

2) The attack will use 2 dice per target miniature since the attack has double splash/flame symbol.

3) Attack action: Roll 4 dice (that's 2 x 2 dice per Medium Rocket). Mark one of the Limited Ammo boxes as used.

4) Sustained Attack action: Roll 4 dice. Re-roll any misses. Mark one of the Limited Ammo boxes as used.

5) Volley Attack action: Roll 8 dice (that's 2 x 2 dice per Medium Rocket x 2 for the Limited Ammo boxes). Mark both of the Limited Ammo boxes as used.

Does this make sense? Please let me know what you think.

Thanks
 
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sacha cauvin
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From what i recall:

Ammo drop doesnt work for planes.

Planes cant sustain attack ( only choppers).

Volley means you can use both ltd ammo weapon in The same attack. So only 2 dice each.

Correct me if i am wrong.
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Marwan Marwan مروان مروان
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Some heroes when piloting an Aircraft can get a third action which means they can do a Sustained Attack.

My confusion with Volley is that it states that all remaining Limited Ammo can be used, but next to the name of the weapon (in this case Medium Rockets) on the weapon line there is a 2 x which means the dice for that weapon are doubled.

So Volley would double the 2 x the dice for that weapon...That's my interpretation.

Thoughts?
 
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Matt Siegel
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Volley: weapon may fire all remaining ammunition at the same target in a single Attack or Sustained Attack Action.

It depends on the weapon, but for the Thunder, you'd be rolling 4 dice. Note the Thunder is an Aircraft and cannot Sustain Attack.

As of yet, the only Allies that may Pilot a Vehicle are Jack, Tom, or Crazy Jimmy. However, note in the rules there's also the Ace Air Pilot Skill, meaning Ace Pilot only applies to Vehicles and not Aircraft.
 
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Marwan Marwan مروان مروان
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So far when using Volley, we have two votes for 4 dice per attack versus one vote for 2 dice per attack. It would be nice to get some more input on this.

As for Sustained Attack and Aircraft, both the SSU and Axis have Ace Air Pilots, and I don't see a reason why the Allies wouldn't get one in the future. This means that Aircraft can make Sustained Attack when the Ace Air Pilot hero piloting it successfully rolls for a third action during a particular activation.

The Bloody Baron (Luftwaffe faction) is the Axis' Ace Air Pilot hero:



We all know that the SSU have Helicopters (Aircraft), so the Sustained Attack is a given.

Now back to the Volley discussion...

 
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Marwan Marwan مروان مروان
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With my current understanding of Volley, the SSU Red Star Helicopter (Aircraft) becomes extremely deadly when using Volley, and instantly impotent after that attack as all it's Limited Ammo weapons are used up.



With Volley, the Red Star can unleash 32 dice against a vehicle. There's no need for a Sustained Attack with this type of firepower.
 
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victor araujo
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I read it as:
Red Star, attack, no volley = 2 dice, one ammo spent.

Red Star, Attack, With Volley = 2 dice per ammo spent (8 dice max)

It' like infantry unit with 5x RPG being down to a single soldier.
 
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Johannes Haglund
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That's correct. So max 8 dice from red star.
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Johannes Haglund
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Compare with the SSU hero, Guai-Lo. He has 4x RPG, but not Volley. Which means he can never fire more than one at a time, even though he has four in total.
 
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Johannes Haglund
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To be a bit clearer, 4x here does not mean that one weapon gets four times the dice. It means there are four of those weapons in the unit/model. And Volley means that one model can fire all four. Otherwise they can only fire one.
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Marwan Marwan مروان مروان
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How do you come to this conclusion? Where does it say that in case of Volley the weapon multiplier (2x) doesn't apply?

Frankysan wrote:
To be a bit clearer, 4x here does not mean that one weapon gets four times the dice. It means there are four of those weapons in the unit/model. And Volley means that one model can fire all four. Otherwise they can only fire one.


I'm curious to understand this well as I have to explain it to my playing group since we always argue over it.
 
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Johannes Haglund
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Page 145 explains Volley weapons. And page 17 explains the meaning of the 4x. So it's not a multiplier. By that logic, a unit with 5 machine guns that all fire 5 dice each (having 5x on the card) would roll 125 dice.
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Marwan Marwan مروان مروان
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I think your 125 dice example would work if there were 5 weapon lines with each weapon line having a 5x with 5 dice listed per line

Frankysan wrote:
Page 145 explains Volley weapons. And page 17 explains the meaning of the 4x. So it's not a multiplier. By that logic, a unit with 5 machine guns that all fire 5 dice each (having 5x on the card) would roll 125 dice.


I'm starting to see Volley being interpreted the way you're explaining it but I still don't feel good about having that 2x or 4x on the weapon line in combination with the Limited Ammo boxes. They should have one or the other.

An official statement on this would be helpful.
 
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Magnus G
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This exact question came up in V2, and it was explained as being a typo. So, my guess is that it's probably still a typo.

The Red Star Helicopter, for example, should likely have 1x Rocket Pod (Limited Ammo: 4, Volley). Otherwise, as Marwan says, it doesn't really make sense.

Franky, can you post this question on FB?
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Johannes Haglund
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Yeah, I'll ask. It really doesn't make sense. It should be 1x and Volley, or 4x without Volley.
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Marwan Marwan مروان مروان
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Thanks Magnus and Frankysan

If this is an issue for us to discuss, you can imagine how confusing it would be for new players.

It's kinda disappointing that if this was a typo in V2 cards that it crossed over into the new revised V3 cards still as a typo

I emailed Dust Studio last night after I posted my last message with a link to this thread. Hopefully someone can jump in here and officially answer this for us.

whistle
 
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victor araujo
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I would agree, the current wording in the rule book and the way the stat lines are currently printed, makes volley / ammo confusing and leads to the argument for massive amounts of dice.

I'm sure the intention would be 4x rockets, in the case of Red Star, will use 4 ammo rolling 8 dice.

This issue doesn't seem to come up with squads as the book specifies surviving members may fire off their weapons. And typically vehicles will have weapons listed as 1x dual cannon, or 1x quad triple rockets.

SOOooooooo.... Red Star should have: 1x Quad seven barrel rocket pod(s)...
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Marwan Marwan مروان مروان
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I got an email response from Dust Studio on this today...

Dust Studio on 2017-01-18 wrote:
The answer will be posted directly on BGG within a couple of days.


 
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Lance
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Is that a standard Dust Kickstarter unit measurement of time or a real measurement of time :)
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Marwan Marwan مروان مروان
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Be nice

EyeLost wrote:
Is that a standard Dust Kickstarter unit measurement of time or a real measurement of time sa power
 
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Olivier Zamfirescu
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Hi everyone,

sorry for arriving late to the party, I'm not on BGG often

OK you're mixing several things here, and confusing some rules where there shouldn't be any confusion. Always remember that rules read and apply in sequence and you'll be fine

- The plane has two Rockets on the model, hence the 2 x Rockets.
- the Rockets have boxes: it makes them Limited Ammo Weapons, hence you can ONLY USE ONE per Attack Action.
- Since it has Volley, it means that you can use BOTH Rockets at the same time. That's all.
- and since they are marked 2x and as such are considered two weapons, they can be aimed at two different targets.

For example:
I shoot at a Vehicle 5. I roll two dice since the weapon is double Blast/2. If I Volley, I use both Rockets and therefore roll four dice (2BLAST + 2BLAST).
And if I were to Sustained Attack, I would reroll the MISS results once.

Does that make sense?
Cheers,
Olivier.
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Johannes Haglund
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Thanks for the answer, and nice to see you here

This part I think is where the confusion happens:
Olivier Dust Studio wrote:
- the Rockets have boxes: it makes them Limited Ammo Weapons, hence you can ONLY USE ONE per Attack Action.

I can't find this rule in the book. It's not written in the "Limited-Ammo Weapons" section on page 141.
 
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Magnus G
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Nice to see you here Olivier! Thanks for the answer.

Olivier Dust Studio wrote:
- The plane has two Rockets on the model, hence the 2 x Rockets.
- the Rockets have boxes: it makes them Limited Ammo Weapons, hence you can ONLY USE ONE per Attack Action.
- Since it has Volley, it means that you can use BOTH Rockets at the same time. That's all.
- and since they are marked 2x and as such are considered two weapons, they can be aimed at two different targets.
Unfortunately, this isn't in the rulebook.

On page 29 it says "Vehicle and Hero Units can use all of the Weapons listed in their Weapons Table during each Attack Action."

On page 141 it says "Limited-Ammo Weapons are indicated by check-boxes in the Weapons Table on the Unit Card. Mark one of these boxes each time an Infantry or Vehicle Unit makes an Attack or Sustained Attack Action with the Limited-Ammo Weapon. Once all of the check-boxes have been marked, the Weapon can no longer fire."

On page 145 it says "A Volley Weapon is a Limited-Ammo Weapon that can fire any or all of its remaining bombs or rockets simultaneously. The player selects how many bombs or rockets to use in an Attack Action, and marks the same number of ammo boxes to indicate that they have been expended."

Assuming all of this is also true for Aircraft Units, it looks like the Red Star Helicopter in the earlier example can normally fire four Rockets (because of "4x") and that "Volley" doesn't really do anything.

Olivier Dust Studio wrote:
For example:
I shoot at a Vehicle 5. I roll two dice since the weapon is double Blast/2. If I Volley, I use both Rockets and therefore roll four dice (2BLAST + 2BLAST).

So, just to make sure I understand this, is the following true?
- The Red Star Helicopter in the earlier example need to use "Volley" to fire more than 1 Rocket in a single Attack Action.
- If it did not have "Volley", it could never fire more than 1 Rocket per Attack Action, despite the Rockets being "4x".
- The reason for these limits is because each model can only fire one "Limited-ammo Weapon" per Attack Action, regardless of "2x", "4x" etc.
- With the combination of "4x", Limited-ammo Weapon and Volley, the Red Star can fire all 4 Rockets at up to four Targets (if it has 4 Ammo left) in a single Attack Action.
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Marwan Marwan مروان مروان
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Hi Oliver! I'm happy to see you on here too!!

I'm with Magnus on this. I still find it confusing because the rules listed on page 29, 141 and 145 don't seem to flow very well for me.

MagWiz wrote:
On page 29 it says "Vehicle and Hero Units can use all of the Weapons listed in their Weapons Table during each Attack Action."

On page 141 it says "Limited-Ammo Weapons are indicated by check-boxes in the Weapons Table on the Unit Card. Mark one of these boxes each time an Infantry or Vehicle Unit makes an Attack or Sustained Attack Action with the Limited-Ammo Weapon. Once all of the check-boxes have been marked, the Weapon can no longer fire."

On page 145 it says "A Volley Weapon is a Limited-Ammo Weapon that can fire any or all of its remaining bombs or rockets simultaneously. The player selects how many bombs or rockets to use in an Attack Action, and marks the same number of ammo boxes to indicate that they have been expended."


So what happens when Limited Ammo weapon is used in an infantry unit? As an example, the Axis Cursed (Suicide Zombie Squad) has five miniatures, and each miniature is holding a Limited Ammo (Panzerfaust 100) weapon. There is a 5x on the weapon line for Panzerfaust 100 . Is this unit only allowed to use ONE Panzerfaust 100 per attack since it doesn't have Volley? Are they not able to use all their Limited Ammo Panzerfaust 100 at the same time (assuming all five figures are still in play)?



Olivier Dust Studio wrote:
- the Rockets have boxes: it makes them Limited Ammo Weapons, hence you can ONLY USE ONE per Attack Action.


Thoughts? Opinions? Help?

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Magnus G
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marwan_marwan wrote:
So what happens when Limited Ammo weapon is used in an infantry unit? As an example, the Axis Cursed (Suicide Zombie Squad) has five miniatures, and each miniature is holding a Limited Ammo (Panzerfaust 100) weapon. There is a 5x on the weapon line for Panzerfaust 100 . Is this unit only allowed to use ONE Panzerfaust 100 per attack since it doesn't have Volley? Are they not able to use all their Limited Ammo Panzerfaust 100 at the same time (assuming all five figures are still in play)?
That's why I wrote per model in my post above.

By Olivier's answer I'm assuming that each model in a Unit can only use one Limited weapon per Attack Action. So, an Aircraft can only use one Bomb/Rocket since the Aircraft is only one model. This is why it needs Volley to fire more.

By the same reasoning, the Zombie Unit in your example could fire all five Panzerfausts, since there are five models in the Unit.
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