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Subject: So, how many of you are ready and willing to admit... rss

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That golden showergate was made up?
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TheDashi wrote:
That golden showergate was made up?


I have some bad news for you about the religion of the state...
 
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TheDashi wrote:
That golden showergate was made up?


Me. But I care not either way - it isn't like I give a damn what turns a man on, so long as it isn't illegal. Trump likes to watch women pissing (either in general or in one specific instance)? Doesn't matter to me.

On the other hand, apart from giggling at passing references, I've not following this rubbish - do we now have proof one way or the other? And how did we get it?

And of course, if it was made up, who did it? (I think we all know the why)
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I heard he makes the women consume a special Trump gold leaf capsule, so the urine is extra Gold and Sparkly.

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Yes we can just file it in the slur against the president file along with all the ones against Obhma.

It does make good comedy material though so can we carry on laughing about it for a few more weeks until the shower passes and the stream runs dry?
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TheDashi wrote:
That golden showergate was made up?


Along J J's lines, I'll go you one better: it's so unimportant if true that it's not even worth the time to establish whether it's true or false that he derives sexual pleasure from being peed on. I think it's execrable (no pun intended) to make a political issue of it either way, in much the same way that I think it's execrable to view stolen nude photos of Jennifer Lawrence. People's private lives should be treated as private, even when they're gigantic jerks.

If the issue is that prostitution is illegal, whatever. It doesn't seem like he'd have broken an American law, and the Russians don't seem interested in prosecuting, so I'll treat him like anyone else accused but never tried or convicted. If it's a moral issue, whatever--he's so deeply immoral that I don't know that it gives us any new information. Guy cheated on his wife with person B, divorced wife A to marry wife B, then divorced wife B, and seems genuinely regretful about none of that. I don't see hiring a prostitute as any worse.

I do think his defense was insultingly stupid, and for that, he deserves a little scorn. The idea that he never does awful things when he knows he might be recorded was pretty seriously disproven earlier in the campaign season, and the idea that a germaphobe would be perfectly happy to expose himself to a woman's mouth and vagina but not her (essentially sterile) urine is completely incoherent. But, again, he's a lying jerk who constantly gives excuses for his lapses which make no sense. So he's pretty much already pegged the scorn-merit meter.

I have no problem with people making fun of him for it, as a bit of silliness they don't believe, but that's it.
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Since I had no idea what you were talking about, I had to Google 'Golden Showergate'.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-revealed-golden-shower-gate-0...

I have no idea if it is fake. At least there is some chance a former British agent might know something.

Though I doubt Trump is blackmail-able. If his followers don't care about Trump entering a female locker-room to ogle underage girls, I doubt anything will bother them.
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RSP - taking the piss so the president doesn't have to!
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Rumor has it that Tony Perkins loves the warm, golden stream.
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has there been any offical policy announced on public water works In Flint yet?


Did he remember to warn them not to cross the streams? Will the press corps still cut him off mid flow? Enquirying minds want to know!
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Hey, that sounds like a fun game! OK, I'll join in:

So, how many of you are ready and willing to admit...


... that Obamacare is the same as the Affordable Care Act?
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Did anyone think it was real? I mean, I actively don't give a shit if it is, Donald Trump is saying plenty of stuff that worries me. What he does or does not do in the bedroom does not concern me at all.
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bob_santafe wrote:
Hey, that sounds like a fun game! OK, I'll join in:

So, how many of you are ready and willing to admit...


... that Obamacare is the same as the Affordable Care Act?


No it isn't. Obamacare is the Unaffordable care act.
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JasonJ0 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
That golden showergate was made up?

On the other hand, apart from giggling at passing references, I've not following this rubbish - do we now have proof one way or the other? And how did we get it?

BuzzFeed posted 35 pages that are laughable on their face. Digging into the alleged "facts" in those 35 pages, several of them have been proven false: People being in Prague at a time they were demonstrably in LA, that kind of thing.

Quote:
And of course, if it was made up, who did it? (I think we all know the why)

The ex-intel guy in Britain was hired to dig up dirt by the #NeverTrump Republicans in the primaries, then continued to be paid by Democrats in the general. This is "the dirt" he dug up, shopped around to quite a number of news organizations in September and October, all of which refused to bite because there is literally not a shred of evidence for any of it. This is the distilled urinal essence of #FakeNews.

John McCain gave it to the FBI after the election and told them to investigate, resulting in leaks that "intelligence agencies have been investigating this!"

BuzzFeed and CNN then colluded-for-clicks (and to inject a partisan hit into the news cycle the day before a press conference) where BuzzFeed released all of it because CNN was "reporting on it", while CNN ran panels all day "reporting" that BuzzFeed was publishing all of it. Several news sources, including the NYT, mocked them for the transparent deceit of their rationales in playing that obvious game. Hopping on the evidence-free bandwagon, BBC began claiming that anonymous sources were alleging that video might exist.

This lead to all three being called out as Fake News in the Trump press conference, as the various claims of the 35 pages had already begun falling apart under even the mildest scrutiny.

Both BuzzFeed and CNN pointed the finger at the other one after being publicly called out. Both lost rather a large share of their dwindling supplies of public trust in caring, at all, about reporting the Truth.

And that was PeeGate
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TommyP wrote:
Did anyone think it was real?

If only there was a way to scroll down to threads earlier in the week to see if there were dozens of gleeful comments presuming it all to be true. If only ...

Short answer: yes, tons of people who like to claim to be part of "the reality-based community" eagerly took BuzzFeed and CNN and BBC at their word, despite Zero Evidence for any of the claims, and despite an entire election season where each of them was repeatedly caught with their pants down
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Darth Thulhu wrote:
TommyP wrote:
Did anyone think it was real?

If only there was a way to scroll down to threads earlier in the week to see if there were dozens of gleeful comments presuming it all to be true. If only ...

Short answer: yes, tons of people who like to claim to be part of "the reality-based community" eagerly took BuzzFeed and CNN and BBC at their word, despite Zero Evidence for any of the claims, and despite an entire election season where each of them was repeatedly caught with their pants down


but does it taste like a warm Sauvignon Blanc or spoiled ice-tea?

 
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darthhugo wrote:
but does it taste like a warm Sauvignon Blanc or spoiled ice-tea?

The tears and lamentations and rages and pathetic attempts at distraction taste like Winning
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TheDashi wrote:
That golden showergate was made up?


With claims like this, it's more accurate to say 'I don't believe the claims' rather than 'I believe the claims are false'.

I had the same response to PigGate here in the UK. the claims about David Cameron's sexual involvement with a pig head are likely to be an either a direct invention of Lord Ashcroft or else a dirty rumour that he's given undue publicity to. That being said, the claims can't be disproven.

Trump is in the same situation.

Even if true, I wouldn't be sharing in any moral outrage or puritanism about 'immoral sex acts'. However, the context of that acts does raise some concerns. It is not a comfortable thought that there are people out there with blackmail material on world leaders.

Also, in the Trump case, the idea that he specifically choose a hotel room used by the Obamas for these sex acts is somewhat puerile and juvenile. Trump has crafted an image for himself as an unpredictable man with little emotional self-control or restraint but I would like to believe that at least some of that is an act. If he is the sort of man whose choices are guided by such burning hate as to actively seek out a bed that the Obamas had slept in and then pay people to pee on it, then that is disturbing even if we ignore the sexual taboos involved.

It's probably not true though.
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Darth Thulhu wrote:
TommyP wrote:
Did anyone think it was real?

If only there was a way to scroll down to threads earlier in the week to see if there were dozens of gleeful comments presuming it all to be true. If only ...

Short answer: yes, tons of people who like to claim to be part of "the reality-based community" eagerly took BuzzFeed and CNN and BBC at their word, despite Zero Evidence for any of the claims, and despite an entire election season where each of them was repeatedly caught with their pants down


You can find overly-credulous people behind all and any political label.

That being said, Buzzfeed does not seem to have made false claims.

Buzzfeed - These Reports Allege Trump Has Deep Ties To Russia

"A dossier, compiled by a person who has claimed to be a former British intelligence official, alleges Russia has compromising information on Trump. The allegations are unverified, and the report contains errors."

Originally posted on Jan. 10, 2017, at 11:20 p.m.
Updated on Jan. 11, 2017, at 2:09 a.m.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/kenbensinger/these-reports-allege-t...

Original Version: https://goo.gl/ZxzUtd


Buzzfeed does not seem to have ever claimed that the claims within the dossier were true. They reported that the dossier had been "circulating among elected officials, intelligence agents, and journalists for weeks" and published the dossier and the claims.

That has been attacked as 'irresponsible journalism' by most other news sources and there's a fair case for that; people did go on to take these claims at face-value even though they had not been verified.

However, it was factually correct news; the dossier did exist, it did make those claims, and the only reason why no one knew about it is because other news publications thought that it shouldn't be published unless verified.

I don't follow CNN but I do follow BBC news and I've found their reporting of the affair to be as neutral as usual. What claims have been made in BBC news reports that you object to?

For example, is there anything in this article that you object to?

BBC - Trump's 'Russian dossier' – what we know and what we don't
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38612066

It's notable that the BBC claims to have known about the dossier and chosen not to publish: "All major media outlets have stressed that the report's allegations are unsubstantiated. Several, including the BBC, had knowledge of the claims before the election but were unable to verify them and therefore did not publish stories."
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Wight1984 wrote:
You can find overly-credulous people behind all and any political label.

But the only place you can find a solid dozen+ breathlessly echo-chambering each other is here, or Twitter/Facebook, which I don't follow for precisely that reason.

Quote:
That being said, Buzzfeed does not seem to have made false claims.

The essence of corporate Fake News is to deliberately put out misinformation that disintegrates under even brief scrutiny, all the while lying behind weasel-words that are technically "true" but actively refusing to engage the full reality of the situation.

John McCain hands off a bit of flimsy, manufactured agitprop to the FBI, demanding they investigate. Media that know that, and that choose to hide behind weasel-words "sources say that intelligence agencies are investigating these claims now!" are straight-up willfully misleading people about what is actually going on. That is Manipulative Deceit, whether or not it is technically/Clintonianly-parsed as a "lie".

Quote:
Buzzfeed - These Reports Allege Trump Has Deep Ties To Russia


No: These evidence-free reports, funded by Trump enemies, produced by consultants, and spread around the intelligence community by other Trump enemies, make outlandish claims and have provable falsehoods

One of those is honest and accurate. The other one is lying-by-omission is hopes to craft a deceitful narrative. Exact same thing with BuzzFeed "merely" posting the 35 pages "because CNN is reporting on it", while CNN "merely" runs panels on it all day "because BuzzFeed is publishing".

If there is Zero Evidence the thing isn't just manufactured agitprop, then an organization that cares about its reputation for trustworthiness doesn't run the ridiculous thing. Period.

Quote:
Buzzfeed does not seem to have ever claimed that the claims within the dossier were true.

Then if BuzzFeed wants to have a reputation somewhere Not-Below-The-National-Enquirer, they wouldn't mention the dossier at all, let alone publish it all in the face of breathless CNN narrative-crafting.

Quote:
They reported that the dossier had been "circulating among elected officials, intelligence agents, and journalists for weeks" and published the dossier and the claims.

Every single pathetic hit piece of transparent agitprop "circulates among elected offifials, intelligence agents, and journalists for weeks", so that is a completely Content-Free sentence. It literally means NOTHING, and yet you are defending it as if it is somehow journalism.

Quote:
However, it was factually correct news; the dossier did exist, it did make those claims, and the only reason why no one knew about it is because other news publications thought that it shouldn't be published unless verified.

Just like we don't know about tales of Obama's Muslim indoctrination in Indonesia, because those stupid smear jobs weren't ever published because they could not be verified.

You are literally trying to defend a standard of Fake News that lets any elected official commission a hit piece, hand it off to some agencies and joirnalists, and get it published in full with The Exact Language BuzzFeed tried to use to justify this farce.

Quote:
What claims have been made in BBC news reports that you object to?

"Anonymous sources claim there may be video."

Again: 100% content-free. 100% evidence-free. 100% impossible to disprove. 100% dedicated to implanting a narrative among the gullible, because "a reputable news source wrote about it".

Quote:
It's notable that the BBC claims to have known about the dossier and chosen not to publish

That isn't notable at all. Dozens of outlets had it. None of them published. None of them mentioned it even when CNN and BuzzFeed foolishly went there, unlike the BBC, which rushed in. They didn't pile on because it was Fake News, and it doesn't stop being Fake News just because various media outlets have started citing each other.
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Darth Thulhu wrote:
The other one is lying-by-omission is hopes to craft a deceitful narrative


This seems false: The report doesn't construct a narraitive, it just doesn't construct the narrative that you wanted to see constructed.

I put some value on opinion pieces that attempt to construct narratives around news events; I enjoy reading both the Guardian (left-leaning) and Telegraph (right-leaning) as they attempt to put news items 'into context'. However, this is not 'neutral news'.

In terms of neutral news, I much prefer the content more typically produced by the BBC, which tends to just state what has happened and leave it to the reader to make appropriate inferences.

In this case, a dossier does exist and it did make certain unverified claims; that is factually true and not 'fake news'.

However, because the claims were unverified, most news sources (including the BBC) chose not to publish.

Buzzfeed did choose to publish. This arguably gave undue prominence to a bunch of unverified claims. However, the buzzfeed article was very clear and explicit that the claims were unverified. That anyone could read that article and conclude 'those claims are definitely true' is more a fault with those readers than with the article.

In a better world, it would be the responsibility of an informed and well-educated public to engage with this new information critically. It's only because a substantial amount of the public are overly-credulous and easily biased that releasing this information presents any moral problem.

Darth Thulhu wrote:
If there is Zero Evidence the thing isn't just manufactured agitprop, then an organization that cares about its reputation for trustworthiness doesn't run the ridiculous thing.


This was the BBC's position; they didn't publish the dossier.

Once published, the dossier became a news item that was widely discussed, at which point it becomes appropriate for other news sources to weigh in.

In exactly the same manner, the BBC have produced numerous articles on Obama's birth certificate: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bbc+obama+birth+certificat...

They also covered PizzaGate: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-38156985

Coverage of a belief is not endorsement of a belief. The BBC's coverage of the Trump Dossier does not endorse the claims found in it (quite the reverse).

In fact, BBC Reality Check is dedicated towards reporting on false beliefs, exaggerations and distortions: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32072999

Darth Thulhu wrote:
You are literally trying to defend a standard of Fake News that lets any elected official commission a hit piece, hand it off to some agencies and joirnalists, and get it published in full with The Exact Language BuzzFeed tried to use to justify this farce.


No.

I am saying that any reasonably well-educated person ought to be able to critically assess the information presented to them in the news.

In an ideal world, that would include the publication of this dossier. I've been pretty clear that I do not think that we live in such an ideal world. As such, it is understandable why some news sources, such as the BBC, choose not to publish unverified claims such as those found in this dossier.

However, when such stories are released and do go viral, then it is no longer sufficient for news sources to withhold information from us in case we are overly-credulous or easily mislead by what we read. The claims are out there and news publications must address those claims.

It is then down to us to develop the capacity to assess those claims in an objective fashion.

Darth Thulhu wrote:
Wight1984 wrote:
It's notable that the BBC claims to have known about the dossier and chosen not to publish

That isn't notable at all. Dozens of outlets had it. None of them published. None of them mentioned it even when CNN and BuzzFeed foolishly went there, unlike the BBC, which rushed in.


You claim that they 'rushed in' but the point that you're dismissing is that they knew of the dossier and chose not to publish. They only published articles regarding the matter after Buzzfeed had made the dossier into a topic of international discussion.

There is a fair case that Buzzfeed were irresponsible in publishing the dossier, although it shouldn't surprise anyone that Buzzfeed is not the height of respectable journalism.

However, after the story broke and went viral, it is entirely proper for serious news sources, like the BBC, and both (a) establish the facts and (b) keep us updated on how the story is 'developing' (e.g. international and voter response).

That seems to be what the BBC article that I linked to ( https://goo.gl/DwfuCZ ) is doing. It's up to us to take that information and use it sensibly.
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All I know about it is that there was some unsubstantiated rumor. I don't even know, or care, whether Trump was alleged to have peed or been peed on.

Absent any evidence, it never reached the level where "admitting" anything about it even makes sense.
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darthhugo wrote:
Rumor has it that Tony Perkins loves the warm, golden stream.


Sounds to me like you are speaking from experience.

 
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Darth Thulhu wrote:
Wight1984 wrote:
You can find overly-credulous people behind all and any political label.

But the only place you can find a solid dozen+ breathlessly echo-chambering each other is here, or Twitter/Facebook, which I don't follow for precisely that reason.

Quote:
That being said, Buzzfeed does not seem to have made false claims.

The essence of corporate Fake News is to deliberately put out misinformation that disintegrates under even brief scrutiny, all the while lying behind weasel-words that are technically "true" but actively refusing to engage the full reality of the situation.

John McCain hands off a bit of flimsy, manufactured agitprop to the FBI, demanding they investigate. Media that know that, and that choose to hide behind weasel-words "sources say that intelligence agencies are investigating these claims now!" are straight-up willfully misleading people about what is actually going on. That is Manipulative Deceit, whether or not it is technically/Clintonianly-parsed as a "lie".

Quote:
Buzzfeed - These Reports Allege Trump Has Deep Ties To Russia


No: These evidence-free reports, funded by Trump enemies, produced by consultants, and spread around the intelligence community by other Trump enemies, make outlandish claims and have provable falsehoods

One of those is honest and accurate. The other one is lying-by-omission is hopes to craft a deceitful narrative. Exact same thing with BuzzFeed "merely" posting the 35 pages "because CNN is reporting on it", while CNN "merely" runs panels on it all day "because BuzzFeed is publishing".

If there is Zero Evidence the thing isn't just manufactured agitprop, then an organization that cares about its reputation for trustworthiness doesn't run the ridiculous thing. Period.

Quote:
Buzzfeed does not seem to have ever claimed that the claims within the dossier were true.

Then if BuzzFeed wants to have a reputation somewhere Not-Below-The-National-Enquirer, they wouldn't mention the dossier at all, let alone publish it all in the face of breathless CNN narrative-crafting.

Quote:
They reported that the dossier had been "circulating among elected officials, intelligence agents, and journalists for weeks" and published the dossier and the claims.

Every single pathetic hit piece of transparent agitprop "circulates among elected offifials, intelligence agents, and journalists for weeks", so that is a completely Content-Free sentence. It literally means NOTHING, and yet you are defending it as if it is somehow journalism.

Quote:
However, it was factually correct news; the dossier did exist, it did make those claims, and the only reason why no one knew about it is because other news publications thought that it shouldn't be published unless verified.

Just like we don't know about tales of Obama's Muslim indoctrination in Indonesia, because those stupid smear jobs weren't ever published because they could not be verified.

You are literally trying to defend a standard of Fake News that lets any elected official commission a hit piece, hand it off to some agencies and joirnalists, and get it published in full with The Exact Language BuzzFeed tried to use to justify this farce.

Quote:
What claims have been made in BBC news reports that you object to?

"Anonymous sources claim there may be video."

Again: 100% content-free. 100% evidence-free. 100% impossible to disprove. 100% dedicated to implanting a narrative among the gullible, because "a reputable news source wrote about it".

Quote:
It's notable that the BBC claims to have known about the dossier and chosen not to publish

That isn't notable at all. Dozens of outlets had it. None of them published. None of them mentioned it even when CNN and BuzzFeed foolishly went there, unlike the BBC, which rushed in. They didn't pile on because it was Fake News, and it doesn't stop being Fake News just because various media outlets have started citing each other.



Nice takedown, noble effort on all counts. But Wight actually seriously believes women are walking around in men's bodies. So...as I said, noble effort.
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