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Subject: The "They went too far!"/"They didn't go far enough!" RSP thread rss

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Bryan Thunkd
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So I just noticed that they're "Draining the Swamp" in RSP and I'm surprised no one has complained about it here. So we might as well talk about it.

While I think moderating the RSP forum for toxic behavior makes it better than it was... I truly believe there shouldn't even be a RSP forum. I think this was a stopgap measure that only partially addresses some of the recent problems. They could, and should do more. Either fully moderate the RSP forum or do away with it altogether.
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Re: The "They went to far!"/"They didn't go far enough!" RSP thread
For years I've been baffled by the attraction of RSP for so many people. I occasionally hear rumors that there is interesting stimulating intelligent religious/political discussion in RSP, but every time I look there (once every month or two), invariably the threads I see are mostly people angrily contemptuously calling each other stuff like "pathetic cunt" and "libtard" etc.
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Re: The "They went to far!"/"They didn't go far enough!" RSP thread
Thunkd wrote:
While I think moderating the RSP forum for toxic behavior makes it better than it was... I truly believe there shouldn't even be a RSP forum. I think this was a stopgap measure that only partially addresses some of the recent problems. They could, and should do more. Either fully moderate the RSP forum or do away with it altogether.
I invite you to not post in RSP if you don't like posting in RSP. As an added bonus, I also invite you to not read RSP.

Complaint solved! Thank you for your input!
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Pete
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Re: The "They went to far!"/"They didn't go far enough!" RSP thread
I take my unmoderated RSP posting to a different web site.

Pete (sees no reason to post about that stuff here)
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Re: The "They went to far!"/"They didn't go far enough!" RSP thread
Which site, Pete?
 
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Re: The "They went to far!"/"They didn't go far enough!" RSP thread
plezercruz wrote:
I take my unmoderated RSP posting to a different web site.

Pete (sees no reason to post about that stuff here)

Unmoderated was an unmitigated disaster. I like the new "mostly moderated" approach - it's less hyper





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Greg
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Re: The "They went to far!"/"They didn't go far enough!" RSP thread
RSP has always baffled me too. I come to BGG because I have an interest in board games and I am convinced that the users of BGG contain the people who know the most about board games anywhere. Therefore, I am educated here and can sometimes participate in decent discussions about board games. I respect many users' opinions here on board games.

RSP is odd because it has nothing to do with board games. The collection of users that are in RSP are no more experts on religion, sex or politics than Jim Bob on the street. What does being a board gamer have to do with any of the topics in RSP? Why here? Why this site? To me, it would be no different than putting up a "Cooking" or "Knitting" forum here.

Personally, I don't visit Chit Chat much for the same reason, but at least the topics there are more light hearted. I find the topics in RSP to generally be more toxic and there is rarely any discussion on a topic. It's just emotions being flung back and forth. That being said, I don't mind if it exists because I can simply avoid it. I don't need to go there and participate and many people do seem to enjoy it, so more power to them.

My only issue is when certain topics get posted to General Gaming that sometimes contain topics that are frequently discussed in RSP, such as threads about diversity in board games and how minorities are represented in them. I feel there can be a level headed and interesting discussion there, but inevitably RSP users begin popping in carrying a lot of past baggage from their discussions in RSP. At that point, those threads are driven to the usual RSP extreme viewpoints, which destroys all attempts at a rational discussion.
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True Blue Jon
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Both cooking and knitting are also discussed here. You bring up a good point when saying there are some users that destroy conversations, usually in RSP-related topics of conversations. Sadly, BGG has decided not to kick out those users but instead just move those threads to RSP, which is sad because 10 years ago, there was a lot of good discussion in RSP. Now it's almost all name-calling.

BGG needs to grow a backbone and kick out the disruptive users instead of just moving the threads to RSP.
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Brian S.
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s3kt0r wrote:
My only issue is when certain topics get posted to General Gaming that sometimes contain topics that are frequently discussed in RSP, such as threads about diversity in board games and how minorities are represented in them. I feel there can be a level headed and interesting discussion there, but inevitably RSP users begin popping in carrying a lot of past baggage from their discussions in RSP. At that point, those threads are driven to the usual RSP extreme viewpoints, which destroys all attempts at a rational discussion.
It's RSP users that destroy rational discussion of hot-button topics outside of RSP? There are plenty of non-RSP'ers capable of that and that are doing that.
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Chris Johnson
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s3kt0r wrote:
The collection of users that are in RSP are no more experts on religion, sex or politics than Jim Bob on the street.


You are incorrect about this particular point.

Certainly not everyone is, but there are plenty of experts in all three areas. And the *average* level of knowledge of all three in RSP is certainly higher than that among gamers in general, much less the general populace.

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rico
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s3kt0r wrote:
Why here? Why this site? To me, it would be no different than putting up a "Cooking" or "Knitting" forum here.


cooking guild
knitting guild

You were saying?

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Agree 100% with Spoon.

If you don't like it, don't go there. No reason to take it away from active participants. I agree with what others have said that it also drives traffic (and annual support) to the site.

I wouldn't be here as much if it weren't for the community aspects of the site: play by forum on RPGG, chit chat, the guilds and yes, RSP.
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Greg
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Vrooman wrote:
It's RSP users that destroy rational discussion of hot-button topics outside of RSP? There are plenty of non-RSP'ers capable of that and that are doing that.

I was not making an absolute statement that all destroyers of rational discussion are RSP users. I also agree that there are plenty of non-RSP'ers who are capable of that on there own. I am not stating that removing RSP or more heavily moderating it would completely remove that. However, it might improve it.

When certain threads start moving into the extreme ends of the discussion, it is often due to a certain user or another. Oftentimes, I have checked their posting history and seen that they are here pretty much exclusively for the RSP forums. Not always, but often enough. I feel RSP attracts some of the people with extreme views to this site, and just having them here makes it more likely it will spill into the board game discussions.

Again, I am not suggesting that moderating RSP, or getting rid of it altogether, would fix anything 100%. A 100% solution does not exist. I would suggest it could improve things.


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Greg
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spoon wrote:
s3kt0r wrote:
Why here? Why this site? To me, it would be no different than putting up a "Cooking" or "Knitting" forum here.


cooking guild
knitting guild

You were saying?


You are correct. Those do exist. I also do not visit a board game site to read those either. However, nothing that happens in either of those guilds spills over to the rest of the site in any sort of negative way and are far easier to ignore the existence of.
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Greg
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fnord23 wrote:
s3kt0r wrote:
The collection of users that are in RSP are no more experts on religion, sex or politics than Jim Bob on the street.


You are incorrect about this particular point.

Certainly not everyone is, but there are plenty of experts in all three areas. And the *average* level of knowledge of all three in RSP is certainly higher than that among gamers in general, much less the general populace.


I suppose I'll have to take your word for it.
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"Hey I'm here to complain about something I don't use and could easily ignore, but instead I'd rather question its value and existence even though others use and enjoy it."
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s3kt0r wrote:

I was not making an absolute statement that all destroyers of rational discussion are RSP users. I also agree that there are plenty of non-RSP'ers who are capable of that on there own. I am not stating that removing RSP or more heavily moderating it would completely remove that. However, it might improve it.

When certain threads start moving into the extreme ends of the discussion, it is often due to a certain user or another. Oftentimes, I have checked their posting history and seen that they are here pretty much exclusively for the RSP forums. Not always, but often enough. I feel RSP attracts some of the people with extreme views to this site, and just having them here makes it more likely it will spill into the board game discussions.

Again, I am not suggesting that moderating RSP, or getting rid of it altogether, would fix anything 100%. A 100% solution does not exist. I would suggest it could improve things.

RSP now has moderation with a "Chilling Effect"/"Feels Like" around that of liquid nitrogen.

Administrator Octavian, using whatever covert criterion he finds relevant, bans posters that he sees as toxic.
No additional warnings.
No specific warning.
No appeal.
No explanation.

My understanding is that it's been recognised that damage is done to the site's reputation, and future, by toxic posts and toxic posters.

I'd guess that Octavian would appreciate users bringing incidents of toxicity on BGG to his notice.
He may even appreciate the formation of a Secret Policing Squad who prowl RSP's dark alleys and report quickly of toxic incidents - though I'm not so confident about this one.

I'm doubtful that we'll see long lasting re-appearances of the sort of vicious, angry threads that have featured over the last year or so.

edit:
@ Greg.
I would be interested in your, or others, appraisal of the effectiveness of this form of moderation on RSP.
Please wait a month* for things to stabilise and then have a look at RSP and share your evaluations.

* A month?: Currently the height of discord on RSP is singling out someone (me) from a pack of pedants and calling me a pedant, and perfunctory muttering over whether calling statements "stupid" contributes to toxicity. The disturbances, caused by the bannings thus far, have been so extensive that a rhetorical question went by without being answered.
It may take some time for brilliant discourse to re-emerge.
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Chris
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Shampoo4you wrote:

"Hey I'm here to complain about something I don't use and could easily ignore, but instead I'd rather question its value and existence even though others use and enjoy it."



I'm pretty sure if BGG ever desires a 'tagline' - this will be it ...
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C Bazler
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s3kt0r wrote:
My only issue is when certain topics get posted to General Gaming that sometimes contain topics that are frequently discussed in RSP, such as threads about diversity in board games and how minorities are represented in them. I feel there can be a level headed and interesting discussion there, but inevitably RSP users begin popping in carrying a lot of past baggage from their discussions in RSP. At that point, those threads are driven to the usual RSP extreme viewpoints, which destroys all attempts at a rational discussion.


That's funny, because as an RSP semi-regular, whenever those threads get kicked to us and I read through to get caught up, I always think to myself "Who are all of these awful people saying these horrible things?"

Regular BGG users are perfectly capable of turning political discussions into dumpster fires. That's why RSP topics are not allowed in other parts of the site.

The problem with your ideal of always-"rational" discussion is that when discussing RSP topics--such as your own rights and freedoms, social and legal oppression, religious intolerance, cruelty and violence--most people are very likely to have strong emotional responses. It's relatively normal, and is one reason people get so passionate about politics, and religion.

That's only more of a reason to have more moderation in RSP, though, because without it people feel they have the freedom to say whatever they want, even if it crosses a line. And when people get angry, or distressed, they can cross that line in extremely cruel and vicious ways.

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Chris
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cbazler wrote:
That's only more of a reason to have more moderation in RSP, though, because without it people feel they have the freedom to say whatever they want, even if it crosses a line. And when people get angry, or distressed, they can cross that line in extremely cruel and vicious ways.




If only there were a way to allow users to self-moderate -- I mean, what if you could actually BLOCK another user that you find offensive.

Maybe I'll suggest that as an option. I'm surprised no one has thought of this before.
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Lemur wrote:
cbazler wrote:
That's only more of a reason to have more moderation in RSP, though, because without it people feel they have the freedom to say whatever they want, even if it crosses a line. And when people get angry, or distressed, they can cross that line in extremely cruel and vicious ways.




If only there were a way to allow users to self-moderate -- I mean, what if you could actually BLOCK another user that you find offensive.

Maybe I'll suggest that as an option. I'm surprised no one has thought of this before.


In the case of she2, she couldn't block the person stalking her via geekmail because her stalker kept making new accounts.

But even with the "Block user" option, you still often have to read their quoted content, and let's be honest: if someone really wants to continuously go after you in RSP, they can, and you will find it very hard to ignore or avoid them.

I understand if moderating such a volatile place is too much work for MMM, but I'm happy he's making an attempt to clean it up.

EDIT: Or, by "Block" a user, do you mean actually render their posts invisible (and not just collapsed)? I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic (too much time in RSP he he). If you were serious, that is a good idea.

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Chris
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cbazler wrote:
Lemur wrote:
cbazler wrote:
That's only more of a reason to have more moderation in RSP, though, because without it people feel they have the freedom to say whatever they want, even if it crosses a line. And when people get angry, or distressed, they can cross that line in extremely cruel and vicious ways.




If only there were a way to allow users to self-moderate -- I mean, what if you could actually BLOCK another user that you find offensive.

Maybe I'll suggest that as an option. I'm surprised no one has thought of this before.


In the case of she2, she couldn't block the person stalking her via geekmail because her stalker kept making new accounts.

But even with the "Block user" option, you still often have to read their quoted content, and let's be honest: if someone really wants to continuously go after you in RSP, they can, and you will find it very hard to ignore or avoid them.



Well - geekmail ain't RSP. And, "stalking" starts to infringe on criminal activity. I agree BGG has a reason to step in (and, it's even semi-self-protection).

In so far, as finding it hard to ignore or avoid people, I guess I'm in the minority. I don't terribly concern myself with the opinions (or behavior) of people I don't really know, and almost certainly will never meet in real life. I don't really go to RSP anymore; but only because I cut down most of my posting on BGG (and removing a lot of it, in addition). I've certainly been the "target" of people here on BGG though, in other arenas; and had some amazingly offensive things said to me. For the most part, I just chuckle.

cbazler wrote:
EDIT: Or, by "Block" a user, do you mean actually render their posts invisible (and not just collapsed)? I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic (too much time in RSP he he). If you were serious, that is a good idea.



No - I was being sarcastic. I don't think there's any way to write the software to enable that (and I don't want them diverting resources from continuing to make the rest of the site unusable).
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Lemur wrote:
cbazler wrote:
EDIT: Or, by "Block" a user, do you mean actually render their posts invisible (and not just collapsed)? I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic (too much time in RSP he he). If you were serious, that is a good idea.



No - I was being sarcastic. I don't think there's any way to write the software to enable that (and I don't want them diverting resources from continuing to make the rest of the site unusable).


There is a way, and it is perfectly simple. It involves checking each post against a user's block list (for quoted user-names), and collapsing every post (by adding the standard collapse-post html function line and activating it) that contains a quote where the original would be blocked.

If I knew how to compose this in a grease-monkey script I would have done it myself months ago.
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So...

When do we start hearing the clamouring for the deletion of the Village Square? You know, the other place outright RSP posts are permitted?
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russ wrote:
For years I've been baffled by the attraction of RSP for so many people. I occasionally hear rumors that there is interesting stimulating intelligent religious/political discussion in RSP, but every time I look there (once every month or two), invariably the threads I see are mostly people angrily contemptuously calling each other stuff like "pathetic cunt" and "libtard" etc.


It's true that recently (and by recently I mean about the time that moderation was shut off several years ago) the quality of RSP has declined.

But in general, there can still be value there. Not for everyone to be sure, but some people just like talking about this stuff.

Why do it on a boardgaming website? I don't know. Good question. Historical contingency perhaps? This is the site I was on when I started following these types of topics.

I still lurk in RSP mainly to participate in the occasional science thread. And to understand what and how the other side thinks in politics.

This article on the nature of time is perhaps the favorite thing I've posted on BGG and gives an indication of the value of the forum to me.
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