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Subject: Are We Being Overcharged For Base Game and Add-ons? rss

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Rod
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Is anybody else wondering if we are being overcharged for the game and it's add-ons? On Coolstuffinc (http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/236807) the listing prices are cheaper for the game and some add-ons. The base game is listed for only $52.99, which is considerably cheaper, although I understand it probably won't include the stretch goals. Even still, an extra set of dice are only $8.49 on CSI, while we're being charged $12 on Kickstarter to add them onto our pledge. Same goes with the doors/chests as it's only listed for $9.99 on Coolstuffinc, while we're being charged $12 on Kickstarter.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't make sense to me to invest my money into a product a year or two earlier than it's released only to find out that it's even cheaper for others who haven't invested early on.
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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nearly any game you can get cheaper on retail that in preorder or kickstarter, as distributors and retailers buy in bulk, therefore get better prices.
So they can also sell at a lower price to the customer and still make profit. Basic Economics 1 O 1.
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Baramon
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Well tell it to KDM maniacs who put 2k to KS, they will rip you apart.
I do appreciate that Ares and Gremlins tried to make KS and none KS game as little in difference as possible without CMoN buy now or never get it policy. Got my immortal pledge with this game, it will arrive sometime in a future maybe even before the end of millennium.
 
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Joe Crane
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CSI and other online stores sell at a huge discount. Go to a FLGS and it'll be 80 or what ever the MSRP is. The question also really is what is the KS value vs retail. Did we get enough extra to make it worth what we paid? I think so but I haven't seen what they are putting in the retail box.
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The msrp is $79.90. https://www.acdd.com/products/sword-sorcery-immortal-souls.h... That puts $52.99 right in CSI's standard at 33% off. While there are exceptions, you should pretty much always expect online retailers to sell games anywhere from 30-40% off msrp. It's what they do. The kickstarter lists the msrp inc stretch goals at $220+ that means if you buy everything in the base pledge sans exclusives it would be reasonable to expect to pay $145 or more from CSI. That's the math you should do for any kickstarter when making your decision to back.
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rodnguyen wrote:
Is anybody else wondering if we are being overcharged for the game and it's add-ons? On Coolstuffinc (http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/236807) the listing prices are cheaper for the game and some add-ons. The base game is listed for only $52.99, which is considerably cheaper, although I understand it probably won't include the stretch goals. Even still, an extra set of dice are only $8.49 on CSI, while we're being charged $12 on Kickstarter to add them onto our pledge. Same goes with the doors/chests as it's only listed for $9.99 on Coolstuffinc, while we're being charged $12 on Kickstarter.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't make sense to me to invest my money into a product a year or two earlier than it's released only to find out that it's even cheaper for others who haven't invested early on.


Kickstarter is always a risk/gamble. Sometimes you pay a lot less during the KS than retail (Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients. Sometimes you pay a little more, but get a ton of KS exclusive content (any Cool Mini Or Not KS). Sometimes you pay more, but help get a game funded so it gets created in the first place (VENOM Assault). You may even help fund a game that's not going retail (The 7th Continent). You might fund a game that ends up sucking, are is better than expected.

With backing a KS, the one thing you should not count on is getting it cheaper than retail. Or even before retail. If you do, on either or both counts, bonus.

KS isn't for everyone.
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Rod
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That's really interesting then. I thought the concept of Kickstarters was "You scratch my back, I scratch yours." As in, we help you crowdfund a project that might have never happened without us and in return you give us slight discount, and/or extra exclusive goodies. I wouldn't even be mad if I paid the same price as retail. Unfortunately I'm not wealthy enough to just throw my money wherever I want so I guess I'll think twice before pledging to another Kickstarter.
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rodnguyen wrote:
That's really interesting then. I thought the concept of Kickstarters was "You scratch my back, I scratch yours." As in, we help you crowdfund a project that might have never happened without us and in return you give us slight discount, and/or extra exclusive goodies. I wouldn't even be mad if I paid the same price as retail. Unfortunately I'm not wealthy enough to just throw my money wherever I want so I guess I'll think twice before pledging to another Kickstarter.

I can't comment on the US, but for me in Australia, KS is the only way I can actually get games at near US prices unfortunately including shipping... Some games, it's the only way I can actually get them as they just don't find distribution here. For international markets I believe KS is actually a really good deal generally, I can't speak for other regions but Australia gets a pretty raw deal at retail... That's taking into account exchange rates as well
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Richard A. Edwards
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rodnguyen wrote:
That's really interesting then. I thought the concept of Kickstarters was "You scratch my back, I scratch yours." As in, we help you crowdfund a project that might have never happened without us and in return you give us slight discount, and/or extra exclusive goodies. I wouldn't even be mad if I paid the same price as retail. Unfortunately I'm not wealthy enough to just throw my money wherever I want so I guess I'll think twice before pledging to another Kickstarter.


Which is why I wait for most KS games to go retail then buy online at a discount and pay less than backing would have cost.

There are reasons to be a backer instead though...

If there are lots of KS exclusive items AND you think it's going to be a great game that you'll want to go all in on.

If the game is by a small publisher and not going to retail. Often new publishers produce a game at such high production cost that they cannot offer it at retail (which entails a significant increase pricing it out of the market. A game that costs $50 to print might be offered on KS for $75 since the profit goes direct to the company, but to offer it retail, if they sell it to the distributor for $55 (making only $5 profit), the final retail cost at a store will be closer to $110.

If you believe in supporting the designer/publisher and it doesn't look like the game will get published without more KS backers.

It used to be that being a backer would get you the game before it hit retail, but experience has shown that sometimes retail is actually out first or about the same time.

Most often, I'm a happy discount retail buyer.

Waiting allows me to see how the reviews are for the final, published game. Sometimes I even get to play someone else's copy first. Then I can usually get it for about the same as backing (sometimes more, sometimes less).

In those rare cases where I skipped the KS but love the game so much there's always EBay to pick up KS exclusives. You'll pay more, but it's the rare game I feel the need to do this, so overall I still save money.

Back to this forum's topic, I backed S&S because I like both companies, there are lots of KS exclusives, and this type of game is the sort my group lives for. And I got an early bird pledge
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Simone Romano
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There are several factors involved... first of all, let me say that the online prices of the most famous US website are not present in the other countries of the world
Sometimes they put a pre-order price without know the "real" MSRP... so I really can't understand their business-plan.
By the way, with the base pledge of S&S you will get:
- Immortal Souls (retail game)
- Arcane Portal Expansion, you have to print the books, but you will have all the punchboard and figures
- Darkness Falls Expansion (more or less same price of the core set)
- All non add-ons heroes (probably sold separately in retail)
- All KS exclusive items
- At least 1 year, probably much more, of time in terms of retail distribution times between: immortal souls retail and vastaryous'lair retail

And last but not least, as a backer you are a part of the project, without you and other backers Sword & Sorcery is just a nice Gremlin Project idea, but without funds to becomes real

So, at the end of the day, I hope you will see the value of this KS project
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+1 for what Simone wrote above.

One other thing that Simone wouldn't know is that after Galaxy Defenders (the Gremlin Project idea that became a reality via KS and lead us to Sword & Sorcery) which is an awesome game, I actually WANTED to support the Gremlins because they did such a good job on their previous game. I assume that I'm not the only one.
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Besides being a bit of a Gremlin addict as well since GD I would also add a practical thing. Even in almost nothing is technically a KS exclusive it might be quite some while until you see all that KS addons again. Have a look at Galaxy Defenders. Retail still misses lots of the stuff we have.
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gary gee
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I think we just want to see the game ...still waiting for shipping dates
I can understand why more ex-KS backers are waiting for the game to hit retail instead of backing it...1,you keep your money until its out.
and 2,you know when the game is Actually out.plus it can be cheaper to pick the KS up on ebay.

lets see the goods!
this game has changed plan so many times.im starting to wonder if we are ever going to actually see it !!
plan 1, out for October [though us experienced KS backers know that's always a joke].

Plan 2,first wave out before xmas 2016..second wave first quarter 2017.

plan 3,POSSIBLY before CNY.and the second wave?..2017 2018 . anyones guess.been handled poorly

lets just hope we get something by this time next year.shake
 
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Kamen Hristov
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Haha, don't worry, mate. While I understand your point, we will have Act 1 soon(-ish), even if it bumps into CNY (and I think it will, as otherwise the boxes should've already been loaded onto ships, and they would have informed us about it already - but let's hope I am not that great of a prophet). Even in such a case you'll have it by around mid to late April.

Now, I really hope they finally make a firm announcement about Act 2, which was supposed to be ready for print in November. The first one is going to be useless to me all by itself until 2 is at least traversing the great oceans, as I don't want to have half an year of a pause mid-campaign. It will completely kill the game for my group, hence I will be forced to store the boxes in the closet and wait until ETA of Act 2 gets closer.

Cheer up. It will get here. There are campaigns that are executed way more poorly (my biggest gripe atm being FTA), and then there are some that are just horrendous. Trust me, S&S has nothing to do with those, and by all accounts you'll likely forget the delay that now torments your soul mere moments after you dive into the game itself
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Koroniss wrote:
Haha, don't worry, mate. While I understand your point, we will have Act 1 soon(-ish), even if it bumps into CNY (and I think it will, as otherwise the boxes should've already been loaded onto ships, and they would have informed us about it already - but let's hope I am not that great of a prophet). Even in such a case you'll have it by around mid to late April.

Now, I really hope they finally make a firm announcement about Act 2, which was supposed to be ready for print in November. The first one is going to be useless to me all by itself until 2 is at least traversing the great oceans, as I don't wont to have half an year of a pause mid-campaign. It will completely kill the game for my group, so I will just store the boxes in the closet and wait until ETA of Act 2 gets closer.

Cheer up. It will get here. There are campaigns that are executed way more poorly (my biggest gripe atm being FTA), and then there are some that are just horrendous. Trust me, S&S has nothing to do with those, and by all accounts you'll likely forget the delay that now torments your soul mere moments after you dive into the game itself
Hi,Kamen.

I wish I had your optimism with this KS...been backing KS for years now and know all the problems we backers usually get with them!.but this one just seems to be changing the schedule time after time.as I put above, if they had stuck to their first plan we would be waiting for wave 2 to drop on our doorstep at this time..but we haven't even got wave one dated for shipping!! so very disappointed with the way its been run.
and the VERY LEAST that ARES/GREMLIN could do is ship the full project in one go now..after all it was supposed to be sending wave 2 at this time before they decided to mess us backers about even more.shake
 
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gary gee
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rodnguyen wrote:
That's really interesting then. I thought the concept of Kickstarters was "You scratch my back, I scratch yours." As in, we help you crowdfund a project that might have never happened without us and in return you give us slight discount, and/or extra exclusive goodies. I wouldn't even be mad if I paid the same price as retail. Unfortunately I'm not wealthy enough to just throw my money wherever I want so I guess I'll think twice before pledging to another Kickstarter.
your right,Kickstarters used to be great value...lots of extras like on unlocks not just one figure but a group of figures..not just one scenario...you got a campaign.
bit by bit its gone from being a u scratch my back I,ll scratch yours to being a very greedy almost rip-off project.which is a real shame as I picked up some brilliant KS in the past...but your hard pushed to find a proper value one now...THIS WOULD BE A GREAT VALUE ONE...IF WE GOT IT.BUT THE WAY WE HAVE BEEN MESSED ABOUT WITH CHANGING IT TIME AFTER TIME.I RECKON 2018 WE MIGHT BE LUCKY TO GET IT THEN.shake
 
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I've not played their prior game, but from what I hear about Galaxy Defenders, these guys put quality first, and while they may deliver late, they deliver.

Gary, like you I'm also a KS regular (yes, I have a problem), and I'm not at all worried about S&S delivering, and delivering well.

Some of my other projects, OTOH...
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Dom Hiob
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tootz wrote:
I wish I had your optimism with this KS...been backing KS for years now and know all the problems we backers usually get with them!.but this one just seems to be changing the schedule time after time.


tootz, just out of curiosity: which projects have you been part of in the past? Because shipping was scheduled for October 2016 for S&S. So it's barely been two months. Anything up to and including half a year overdue counts as "pretty fast" in my KS book. Heck, I've seen major publisher non-KS projects delayed by half a year or a year before. I really see NO reason at all to complain about Gremlins/Ares at this point. shake
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DomHiob wrote:
tootz wrote:
I wish I had your optimism with this KS...been backing KS for years now and know all the problems we backers usually get with them!.but this one just seems to be changing the schedule time after time.


tootz, just out of curiosity: which projects have you been part of in the past? Because shipping was scheduled for October 2016 for S&S. So it's barely been two months. Anything up to and including half a year overdue counts as "pretty fast" in my KS book. Heck, I've seen major publisher non-KS projects delayed by half a year or a year before. I really see NO reason at all to complain about Gremlins/Ares at this point. shake
Hi,Dom.
all I can say to that is..if your happy to keep having the plans changed and not getting solid updates ie: actual shipping dates then good for you.but id be just happy to know whats going on with the project Ares/Gremlin have changed things so many times that I'm very much doubting we will get it until august?..thats just the first wave!...I daren't guess as to when we will get a look at wave 2..and don't forget Dom.we were first told that October was scheduled date.but as I said earlier [anyone who is a regular backer takes that with a pinch of salt.]...then we were told that the ks was going to be in 2 waves first wave before xmas second wave first quarter 2017...so,where are we now? first quarter 2017 no game..not even first wave...no solid update..and no shipping date!...so, yes Dom we have been messed about by Ares/Gremlin...if they had just been straight with us backers and said "sorry guys looks like its next year second third quarter"then we would be ok it sucks but it is what it is.but that hasn't happened. we keep being told its this then its that..and now we have that old chestnut.."production problems".....which again I find strange because I contacted Ares by email as late as last aug/early September and got a reply everything was running to schedule????

so.looking at it all in all I think us who have backed the game have evry right to complain.when we are just being led on... looking forward to 2018 might..just might be here by thenshake
 
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Dom Hiob
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tootz wrote:
DomHiob wrote:
tootz wrote:
I wish I had your optimism with this KS...been backing KS for years now and know all the problems we backers usually get with them!.but this one just seems to be changing the schedule time after time.


tootz, just out of curiosity: which projects have you been part of in the past? Because shipping was scheduled for October 2016 for S&S. So it's barely been two months. Anything up to and including half a year overdue counts as "pretty fast" in my KS book. Heck, I've seen major publisher non-KS projects delayed by half a year or a year before. I really see NO reason at all to complain about Gremlins/Ares at this point. shake
Hi,Dom.
all I can say to that is..if your happy to keep having the plans changed and not getting solid updates ie: actual shipping dates then good for you.but id be just happy to know whats going on with the project Ares/Gremlin have changed things so many times that I'm very much doubting we will get it until august?..thats just the first wave!...I daren't guess as to when we will get a look at wave 2..and don't forget Dom.we were first told that October was scheduled date.but as I said earlier [anyone who is a regular backer takes that with a pinch of salt.]...then we were told that the ks was going to be in 2 waves first wave before xmas second wave first quarter 2017...so,where are we now? first quarter 2017 no game..not even first wave...no solid update..and no shipping date!...so, yes Dom we have been messed about by Ares/Gremlin...if they had just been straight with us backers and said "sorry guys looks like its next year second third quarter"then we would be ok it sucks but it is what it is.but that hasn't happened. we keep being told its this then its that..and now we have that old chestnut.."production problems".....which again I find strange because I contacted Ares by email as late as last aug/early September and got a reply everything was running to schedule????

so.looking at it all in all I think us who have backed the game have evry right to complain.when we are just being led on... looking forward to 2018 might..just might be here by thenshake

low on time, but: I really don't know exactly what you're complaining about. I don't think it could be the two-month delay we've incurred so far. To someone who's backed on KS for several years, such a delay is unlikely to even cause a raised eyebrow. Especially not with a project that got "outstretched" like S&S did. So it can't be that.

About information. Ares/Gremlins seem to have kept us in a close loop. They gave out the dates as well as they knew them. They updated us when things changed. Which makes you complain. Had they said "May 2017" from the beginning on (how would they have known for sure at that point, by the way?), I'm sure you would have complained about the giant delay as well. So what chance do you actually give Ares/Gremlins?
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I'm not sure if I ever backed a project that was on time. It is what it is. Hopefully they can beat the Chinese new year. If that that will probably put the delivery date sometime in the summer.
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malkaven wrote:
I'm not sure if I ever backed a project that was on time. It is what it is. Hopefully they can beat the Chinese new year. If that that will probably put the delivery date sometime in the summer.
nope,looks like they haven't even done that!..another "plan" not done!..apparently, it will ship march for us to POSSIBLY get in April..then retail will follow a month later..but I wouldn't hold too much trust in it.until it actually happens.been too many false dawns already with this KS.
just a thought, wave 2 is to follow.so,are we looking at 2 years from start of KS to actually getting everything we paid for?shake
 
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Dom Hiob
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tootz wrote:
malkaven wrote:
I'm not sure if I ever backed a project that was on time. It is what it is. Hopefully they can beat the Chinese new year. If that that will probably put the delivery date sometime in the summer.
nope,looks like they haven't even done that!..another "plan" not done!..apparently, it will ship march for us to POSSIBLY get in April..then retail will follow a month later..but I wouldn't hold too much trust in it.until it actually happens.been too many false dawns already with this KS.
just a thought, wave 2 is to follow.so,are we looking at 2 years from start of KS to actually getting everything we paid for?shake


You like to put it this way. I see this: This is a very successful project that even gives us different poses (with all the associated difficulties with moulds and such). It also gives us a metric ton of content both in terms of components and gameplay.

Ares and Gremlins are doing everything in their power to provide the best game possible without going the easy route of giving us untested or unusable stuff.

With all that in mind, they manage to stay within a 6-month margin of error vs their originally planned shipping date. That is frickin' AWESOME!
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gary gee
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"they manage to stay within a 6-month margin of error vs their originally planned shipping date. That is frickin' AWESOME!".

Hi,again Dom.

the original planned shipping date was October 2016 if I'm correct that was the shipping date for EVERYTHING no wave 1 and wave 2 that came later...so,working on that theory we are going to be well over 6 months for the actual full contents of the game to reach us backers..probably a year if not longer.as ive said all along,its the way we have been strung along with things that's very poor.if they had just said sorry guys could take another 6-9-12 months.then yes people would have been a bit put out.but at least we know were we are.but its been one poor update and plan after another.
another kickstarter I have backed has been great.with updates a lot smaller company than these.but came out and said sorry guys looks like its going to be july/august now...no problem we know we are all ok with it.thats the real difference.straight down the line no stringing us along.we deserve better than that.
anyway, lets hope we see something before summer but don't hold your breath
 
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Dom Hiob
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tootz wrote:
"they manage to stay within a 6-month margin of error vs their originally planned shipping date. That is frickin' AWESOME!".

the original planned shipping date was October 2016 if I'm correct that was the shipping date for EVERYTHING no wave 1 and wave 2 that came later...so,working on that theory we are going to be well over 6 months for the actual full contents of the game to reach us backers.


if I'm correct that was the shipping date for THE BASE GAME no stretch goals, those came later...so,working on that theory we are going to be about 6 months for the actual full contents of the base game (no wave 2, as that contains stretch goals) to reach us backers.

see how you just dismiss certain elementary facts that are important in order to estimate timelines?
 
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