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Subject: I made Pave! rss

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Karl Twort
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Hey,

I have been busy making some templates for Pave sections, to add some variants to my game.

Rules Suggestion:
Asger Rules:
> Pave is Single Lane - passing allowed but cannot occupy same space on end of turn
> No slipstream applied
> No max speed

Also:
> All riders who end their turn on a cobbled square receive an exhaustion card. This will add a lot of exhaustion cards to all riders' decks, and really illustrate the physical exhaustion that riding on cobbles entails - To clarify, a rider who is both in front of a group and on a cobble section would receive 2 exhaustion cards. (Credit: SchackTAG)

They are the correct size to print out in PDF format and then I mounted them onto Photographic mounting board - this is stiff, but easy to cut to shape.

I have made both styles of corners, left and right, 2 full Pave straights and 2 part Pave straights, with each type of road connector on the ends - also all variants for UPHILL only.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Pave racing rules!

Update: This is the final set, including hill sections:

V, v - Hill Pave Straight Section
W,w - Short Curve Pave L and R
X, x - Straight 5 Pave Each End road
Y,y - Straight full Pave
Z,z - Full Curve Pave L and R
AA, aa - Full Curve Pave Hill L and R
BB, bb - Short Curve Pave Hill L and R
CC, cc - Straight Pave 1/2 Each End road

Due to hi Res and file size, need to share this zip from my Google Drive:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_R4juDml93ZSTJVb0FLazRaNm...

and the offical BGG link:

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/142264/pave-pdf-print-fil...

Below is a sample Proof image to show the track parts - this is not to Print!
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Ryan Keane
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Very nice workmanship!
 
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Asger Harding Granerud
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Looks great!
 
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Karl Twort
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AsgerSG wrote:
Looks great!


Thanks Guys!

I'll hopefully add the PDF files to the Files section for everyone later tonight
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René Christensen
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Do you add prints to both sides of the tiles with different numbers of pavels?
 
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Karl Twort
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Slotracer wrote:
Do you add prints to both sides of the tiles with different numbers of pavels?


Hey,

Yes, my first draft piece I made was double sided, I made:

W,w - Short Curve, Full Pave each side
X,x - Straight with 5 Pave, 1 road, one side for each end connector
Y,y - Straight, Full Pave each side
Z,z - Full curve, Pave cobble each side

Its all in Photoshop files so easy to shorten the pave straights, I'll probably make a 1/2 and 1/2 section too.

The first one is usable, but the board I used was too thick. Print quality was also set to medium, not high - to prove the concept.

Happy with how it turned out though. I'll try to get the files uploaded this evening.
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René Christensen
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Does ascent and decent come with pavels in any race?
 
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Karl Twort
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Slotracer wrote:
Does ascent and decent come with pavels in any race?


Not yet, but will be making those this evening. Rules on these would need defining

I would assume max 4 on a climb - slightly reduced speed due to uneven surface?

[edit: as below, descent on Pave is unrealistic and unthematic, so will only include ascents, turns and straights]

Karl
 
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Marcel Sagel
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I would love to see cobbles and cobbled ascents in the game (the cobbled races are among the best bike races around!), but cobbled descents... that would be un-thematic. Real bike races don't descend over cobbles, because it's simply way too dangerous.
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Karl Twort
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mac_s_1 wrote:
I would love to see cobbles and cobbled ascents in the game (the cobbled races are among the best bike races around!), but cobbled descents... that would be un-thematic. Real bike races don't descend over cobbles, because it's simply way too dangerous.


Yeah this is why I didn't make them yet, I was interested to hear views from the boards.

I'll create some uphill Pave sections, with some turns as well

Karl
 
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Søren Andersen
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Wow, these look amazing! I can't wait to try them out out! I was working on something similar, but these simply look so much better than what I made, that I am going to use yours instead.

As for the rules, then I think most people agree that cobbled sections should be single lanes, no slipstreaming and no max speed just like you said. Given that a lot of sprinters tend to do very well in cobblestone classics, It makes sense that there is no restriction on movement (at least on the flat terrain), so that sprinters have the opportunity to simply flying over the cobble sections.

I completely agree that on an ascending pave, the movement should be restricted more than a normal climb, so a max of 4 would be good. However, like Marcel said, a descent over cobbles would be very dangerous and would never take place in a real race.

Also, to keep close the realism that this game usually creates, I would suggest that all riders who end their turn on a cobbled square receive an exhaustion card. This will add a lot of exhaustion cards to all riders' decks, and really illustrate the physical exhaustion that riding on cobbles entails. Just to clarify, a rider who is both in front of a group and on a cobble section would receive 2 exhaustion cards.

I hope that made sense.

Once again, great job! I am very much looking forward to adding your W,X,Y, and Z to my game.
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Karl Twort
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SchackTAG wrote:


Also, to keep close the realism that this game usually creates, I would suggest that all riders who end their turn on a cobbled square receive an exhaustion card. This will add a lot of exhaustion cards to all riders' decks, and really illustrate the physical exhaustion that riding on cobbles entails. Just to clarify, a rider who is both in front of a group and on a cobble section would receive 2 exhaustion cards.

I hope that made sense.




Thanks! I really like the idea of Exaustion when ending on a Pave section - this will indeed reflect the physical nature of it (I rode the Pave at Carrefour de L'arbe last year, its hard going!!)

I have added your ruling to the top section!
 
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René Christensen
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Hmm, since there are no slipstreaming on pavel, there's bound to be some holes in the line of riders. And thereby they get an Exhaustion card. Does your rule (rider ending on pavels must take an Exhaustion card) mean that they get two Exhaustion cards then?
 
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Karl Twort
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Slotracer wrote:
Hmm, since there are no slipstreaming on pavel, there's bound to be some holes in the line of riders. And thereby they get an Exhaustion card. Does your rule (rider ending on pavels must take an Exhaustion card) mean that they get two Exhaustion cards then?


It does yes, to simulate the energy draining Pave! I think that works, but would need some playthroughs to fine tune.
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René Christensen
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Next question then......... are there enough Exhaustion cards for this?
Yesterday we ran out of Exhaustion cards for the sprinters, so we had to look for Exhaustions cards already played.
And this was without pavels!!!!
 
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Karl Twort
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Slotracer wrote:
Next question then......... are there enough Exhaustion cards for this?
Yesterday we ran out of Exhaustion cards for the sprinters, so we had to look for Exhaustions cards already played.
And this was without pavels!!!!


The playtest will Show that. I'll Give it a go!
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Francesc Lopez
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Really cool Karl.
I am also interested in the crafting details.
Do you print the images in photographic paper and then you attach them to something like this (it has self-adhesive?)?
Or glueing in some foam cardboard like the ones used for inserts?

Thanks,
F
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Karl Twort
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For the draft ones I printed on normal paper, but for the actual ones I will be printing on Photographic and gluing to card.

I have finished and will now add these to the files section:

V, v - Hill Pave Straight Section
W,w - Short Curve Pave L and R
X, x - Straight 5 Pave Each End road
Y,y - Straight full Pave
Z,z - Full Curve Pave L and R
AA, aa - Full Curve Pave Hill L and R
BB, bb - Short Curve Pave Hill L and R
CC, cc - Straight Pave 1/2 Each End road

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René Christensen
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So you didnt want the max 4 on ascent pavels?
 
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Karl Twort
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Slotracer wrote:
So you didnt want the max 4 on ascent pavels?


No, I figured the increased Exhaustion would cover as a penalty. If this is proving not to work, I may revisit - but for now, just wanted to get these out there!
 
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Karl Twort
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Due to Hi res image PDF file size, need to share this zip from my Google Drive:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_R4juDml93ZQ1owMlg4YW5NRU...

I hope you enjoy!
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Ryan Keane
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These look great and I'm sure it makes it easier for the pieces to mesh with the existing pieces by having the cobblestone spaces as wide as 2 lanes, but I personally would prefer the cobblestone sections to visually narrow to one lane wide.

I'm not sure about the extra exhaustion for ending your turn on cobble - wouldn't you just then try to sprint through the cobble as fast as possible?

I also have issues with max 4 speed for cobble ascents. The thing is, if you reduce the max speed, you actually kind of make the ascent easier, because there's less possibilities of differences in speed between cyclists and you would only have to save 4's. I would just combine the rules for ascents with the rules for cobble, and avoid having a new rule apply when they are combined.

I was trying to think of how to make ascents feel steeper for Category 1 and HC ascents. One idea I had was to still allow 5 max speed, but you take an exhaustion if you go 5. Or for steeper, take an exhaustion if you go 4 or 5. This way, your choices aren't limited by the terrain but you have to pay for choosing a high speed with extra exhaustion.
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Karl Twort
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Ryan Keane wrote:
These look great and I'm sure it makes it easier for the pieces to mesh with the existing pieces by having the cobblestone spaces as wide as 2 lanes, but I personally would prefer the cobblestone sections to visually narrow to one lane wide.


This is something I played around with and just for ease and to get the feel of the Pave, I just removed the white lines in the middle of the lane. I tried adding water puddles on each side to narrrow it, but it didnt look right.

Ideally Asger may make something like this as an official expansion - then his artists can do the production quality work

Ryan Keane wrote:
I'm not sure about the extra exhaustion for ending your turn on cobble - wouldn't you just then try to sprint through the cobble as fast as possible?


Thats a chance you take, use the sprint or save it! Breakaway on the Pave! Having been at Paris-Roubaix last year, I can say first hand that these guys do sprint down the Pave - the speed was incredible and in fact, most of the riders took a line in the dusty side off the Pave.

Ryan Keane wrote:
I also have issues with max 4 speed for cobble ascents. The thing is, if you reduce the max speed, you actually kind of make the ascent easier, because there's less possibilities of differences in speed between cyclists and you would only have to save 4's. I would just combine the rules for ascents with the rules for cobble, and avoid having a new rule apply when they are combined.


This is how I have applied it - normal 5 max on ascents, but an additional exhaustion card to reflect the effort

Ryan Keane wrote:
I was trying to think of how to make ascents feel steeper for Category 1 and HC ascents. One idea I had was to still allow 5 max speed, but you take an exhaustion if you go 5. Or for steeper, take an exhaustion if you go 4 or 5. This way, your choices aren't limited by the terrain but you have to pay for choosing a high speed with extra exhaustion.


A nice additional rule, I am going to play through this a few times for a while before adding complexity of climb categories, but it certainly would increase the realism!
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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DOA_KappaTango wrote:
Ideally Asger may make something like this as an official expansion - then his artists can do the production quality work

Indeed, I think that with this and the 'velodrome' track variant there is enough material for an expansion! The 5-6 players one can wait...
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Karl Twort
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The official BGG File link is now up, so if you like it and could give it the Thumbs so its more prominent on the files page, that would be great!

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/142264/pave-pdf-print-fil...
 
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