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Mare Nostrum: Empires» Forums » Rules

Subject: Statue of Zeus "Timing" Question rss

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J B
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The timing of the statue of Zeus had our group a bit confused.

The example that came up in the game we had:

Carthage declares "peace" with Rome with Statue of Zeus.

Greece invades one of Carthage's territories and wins, occupying the control marker.

Next turn: Rome is the military leader and declares Greece to go first during the move-and-battle phase.

Can Carthage declare peace with Greece and use the Statue of Zeus "kick everyone out of my provinces" right then, or does Carthage have to wait until "their" move-and-battle phase to use it, thus allowing Greece to convert the province?

The wording on SoZ says "The" next move-and-battle phase, but most of the other rules indicate that you have to wait until "your" next move-and-battle phase to do stuff.

The latter ruling seems to be a lot more "fair" in mitigating SoZ (and gives the SoZ holder more incentive to be the military leader).

Thoughts?
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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If you take the description literally, the Zeus owner has all the rights to say that he may use the ability when the build phase is over.

In any case, we banned Zeus as it's too game breaking.
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Maximilien ASYNCRON games
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Snapcase wrote:
The timing of the statue of Zeus had our group a bit confused.

The example that came up in the game we had:

Carthage declares "peace" with Rome with Statue of Zeus.

Greece invades one of Carthage's territories and wins, occupying the control marker.

Next turn: Rome is the military leader and declares Greece to go first during the move-and-battle phase.

Can Carthage declare peace with Greece and use the Statue of Zeus "kick everyone out of my provinces" right then, or does Carthage have to wait until "their" move-and-battle phase to use it, thus allowing Greece to convert the province?

The wording on SoZ says "The" next move-and-battle phase, but most of the other rules indicate that you have to wait until "your" next move-and-battle phase to do stuff.

The latter ruling seems to be a lot more "fair" in mitigating SoZ (and gives the SoZ holder more incentive to be the military leader).

Thoughts?


The owner of the Statue of Zeus decides with whom he is in peace at the beginning of the Military Phase, before the Military Leader chooses who will go first.
At the moment he takes the decisions, the units who have to "retreat" must "retreat" in the capital.
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Tom Stearns
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So it's not broken if it's played correctly...
 
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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gohrns wrote:
So it's not broken if it's played correctly...

Not sure how you come to this conclusion?
Especially with 3 players it almost makes your provinces impossible to convert.

Turn 1: Player X invades your territory;
Turn 2: You declare peace with X (before he can convert your province(s)); Y invades your provinces;
Turn 3: You declare peace with Y (before he can convert your province(s)); Player X invades your territory;
Turn 4: You declare peace with X (before he can convert your province(s)); Y invades your provinces;

.. and so on. Unless one of your opponents has Queen of Sheeba, no-one can occupy any of your provinces. Not sure how this isn't broken.
Even with 4+ players you usually only have one or two neighbours that are really able to invade you. So yes, I consider it overpowered and on the ban list.
 
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Thierry Mattray
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Teowulff wrote:
gohrns wrote:
So it's not broken if it's played correctly...

Not sure how you come to this conclusion?
Especially with 3 players it almost makes your provinces impossible to convert.

Turn 1: Player X invades your territory;
Turn 2: You declare peace with X (before he can convert your province(s)); Y invades your provinces;
Turn 3: You declare peace with Y (before he can convert your province(s)); Player X invades your territory;
Turn 4: You declare peace with X (before he can convert your province(s)); Y invades your provinces;

.. and so on. Unless one of your opponents has Queen of Sheeba, no-one can occupy any of your provinces. Not sure how this isn't broken.
Even with 4+ players you usually only have one or two neighbours that are really able to invade you. So yes, I consider it overpowered and on the ban list.


Yes, it works like this.
Ok, in this situation, with only 2 opponents, alterning peace with both, they will not be able to convert any of your provinces.
The rules are not mechanically broken, it works correctly.
And so ? Overpowered !? I really don't think so, because :
-province conversions are very uncommon, and this specific case even more.
- opponents are still able to control and / or pillage
- the player has to alternate peace with this 2 players, it's a weakness that can be exploited.

 
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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tontione wrote:
Overpowered !? I really don't think so, because :
-province conversions are very uncommon, and this specific case even more.
- opponents are still able to control and / or pillage
- the player has to alternate peace with this 2 players, it's a weakness that can be exploited.

Well it's a matter of taste and perception, of course.
But in any case: your provinces are as good as immue to being converted. The consequences are:
a. Your opponent can never build anything on them, so it's very hard to defend because you can't build any fortresses in that province;
b. Occupying an area without buildings has no use (except preventing your opponent from doing so), if for example you occupy the Troy province without a city being there, getting 4 capitals as win condition would be impossible;
c. You have to keep your precious legions there in order to reap any benefits from it;
d. If you occupy an enemy province for 1 turn, your opponent can never get it back. Say as militairy leader I occupy 1 Cathage province and next turn I go first and convert the province and withdraw my legion. It will be mine for the rest of the game;
e. In a similar fashion, you can agressively put territory makers on (not yet occupied) strategic provinces without the need to defend them because your opponents can never conquer them anymore;
f. You can completely fend off pieces of hinterland/inland territory because an enemy can't move 2 provinces inward (before being "peaced away").

So in our opinion, it is overpowered. Especially when combined with other heroes/wonders it becomes really (over)powerful. What if you also have the Queen of Sheeba? Or combined with the new Egyptian leader Khufu that may get you Zeus for free - and let you occupy Jerusalem AND Syracuse in turn 1 (and declare peace with Babylon)?
 
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Steven Townshend
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I don't know that there is an "overpowered" in Mare Nostrum. The Heroes and Wonders are good; some are more situational but great in the given situation, while others are applicable most of the time. I think balance is a nice thing to try for, but I've seen too much balance sterilize a game.

That said, I don't like Statue of Zeus, feel it creates more frustration than fun, and strongly encourages ganging up on the player who has it--who will likely be in a strong position if the other players don't gang up.

I haven't removed it from the game yet, but I do welcome the additional heroes/wonders we've received because they mean less likelihood of Statue of Zeus coming out early. I think I mind it less when it's not as likely to appear in every game.
 
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J B
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I think it could easily be fixed in 3-player by changing it to be at the beginning of your Move & Battle phase instead of the start of the overall phase itself.

That would allow province conversions if the conquering player was going before you, but it'd still be something strong to have to work around (and would give the owner of SoZ incentive to become the military leader to pick that turn order).
 
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Snapcase wrote:
I think it could easily be fixed in 3-player by changing it to be at the beginning of your Move & Battle phase instead of the start of the overall phase itself.

That would allow province conversions if the conquering player was going before you, but it'd still be something strong to have to work around (and would give the owner of SoZ incentive to become the military leader to pick that turn order).

I absolutely think houseruling is a weak solution of a problem that shouldn't be there in the 1st place ..
 
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