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Subject: Chinese or Japanese? rss

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XazeChespan Uchuc6aphudUV
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The names are all in Japanese, but the artwork and design is all Chinese. What exactly is this supposed to be? Just a general catch-all "oriental" themed game? Seems a bit confused to me.
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XazeChespanUchuc wrote:
The names are all in Japanese, but the artwork and design is all Chinese. What exactly is this supposed to be? Just a general catch-all "oriental" themed game? Seems a bit confused to me.

"Oriental" sums it up succinctly with all that the term denotes and connotes.
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Ran Carnelaine
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I don't think it's particularly Chinese either. There's Shinto shrines, so it seems like Japanese is the goal, but it's fantasy so they just picked stereotypical and stylized images for what they wanted. Like how they did with Five Tribes.
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Curt Carpenter
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XazeChespan Uchuc6aphudUV wrote:
What exactly is this supposed to be?

What exactly is your name supposed to be???
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Josh
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Shadrach wrote:
<King of the Hill clip>

Classic!!!
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Mike n Phyllis Snedeker
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The artist answered this in another thread with the exact question... shake
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Aleksandra Kuhl
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himiko
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Curious Fu
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sthrjo wrote:
Mike_N_Phyllis wrote:
The artist answered this in another thread with the exact question... shake

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/59701?commentid=67646...
Trefle Rouge wrote:
My artworks are freely inspired by Japanese AND Chinese history. So it's completely assumed cool. The objective was to create something original and unexpected. I traveled in Asia and the countries have so much in common in their past. For exemple, the first pagodas was from Nepal / India and propagated to China, Corea and Japan.

So the Yamataï's atmosphere is more something mythical than historical.

I hope my explanation is clear

I think the OP in this thread is the same as the question in the Game Preview from BGG.CON 2016: Yamataï blog, and just want to move the thread from the blogpost to the forum. OK.


"So much in common in their past" is a reflection of ignorance. It seems that it is generally accepted to be okay for people to have self righteous political correctness when it comes to women representation in games or "African American" representation in games. Perhaps it is because these demographics are more easily apparent to 'Western' cultures. Why is creating and endorsing Asian stereotypes not equally offensive? There is a certain amount of double standards which people are willing to accept when it concerns a demographic which is not closely within their frame of consciousness.
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Curt Carpenter
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curiousfu wrote:
"So much in common in their past" is a reflection of ignorance. It seems that it is generally accepted to be okay for people to have self righteous political correctness when it comes to women representation in games or "African American" representation in games. Perhaps it is because these demographics are more easily apparent to 'Western' cultures. Why is creating and endorsing Asian stereotypes not equally offensive? There is a certain amount of double standards which people are willing to accept when it concerns a demographic which is not closely within their frame of consciousness.

Why so easily offended? Why can't a game just be generically East Asian themed? For all the games featuring white people, do we force designers/publishers to be specific on what country the game is set it? Some choose to, but there's about a bajillion games set generically somewhere in medieval Europe, without anyone caring exactly what country it is. Sheesh.
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curiousfu wrote:
sthrjo wrote:
Mike_N_Phyllis wrote:
The artist answered this in another thread with the exact question... shake

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/59701?commentid=67646...
Trefle Rouge wrote:
My artworks are freely inspired by Japanese AND Chinese history. So it's completely assumed cool. The objective was to create something original and unexpected. I traveled in Asia and the countries have so much in common in their past. For exemple, the first pagodas was from Nepal / India and propagated to China, Corea and Japan.

So the Yamataï's atmosphere is more something mythical than historical.

I hope my explanation is clear

I think the OP in this thread is the same as the question in the Game Preview from BGG.CON 2016: Yamataï blog, and just want to move the thread from the blogpost to the forum. OK.


"So much in common in their past" is a reflection of ignorance. It seems that it is generally accepted to be okay for people to have self righteous political correctness when it comes to women representation in games or "African American" representation in games. Perhaps it is because these demographics are more easily apparent to 'Western' cultures. Why is creating and endorsing Asian stereotypes not equally offensive? There is a certain amount of double standards which people are willing to accept when it concerns a demographic which is not closely within their frame of consciousness.

I'm Asian and have experienced the "are you Chinese or Japanese" phenomenon many times. When I saw the cover art I rolled my eyes, but I'm not offended--just amused at how artists get it wrong so often. Perhaps my lack of outrage is because while Asians are a minority here in the States, they aren't particularly oppressed. I'm offended when women are objectified or when historically and currently oppressed races are portrayed as caricatures, or worse not portrayed at all, but for myself the lack of "proper" Asian representation doesn't offend me. I cannot, however, speak for all Asians and I know it's a sensitive topic for some.

On the flipside, let's not pretend the mashup isn't at the very least silly. It's set in Japan (Yamatai) but the people are in Chinese dress. I'm sure some of us would ridicule a game set in Germany where the people are dressed in kilts. That's about the level of conflation we're talking about here. Nothing to get offended about IMO, but certainly worthy of a healthy eye-roll despite all good intentions from the artist, I'm sure. No doubt the style is beautiful, but the substance leaves a bit to be desired.
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Colin Tress
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MentatYP wrote:
curiousfu wrote:
sthrjo wrote:
Mike_N_Phyllis wrote:
The artist answered this in another thread with the exact question... shake

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/59701?commentid=67646...
Trefle Rouge wrote:
My artworks are freely inspired by Japanese AND Chinese history. So it's completely assumed cool. The objective was to create something original and unexpected. I traveled in Asia and the countries have so much in common in their past. For exemple, the first pagodas was from Nepal / India and propagated to China, Corea and Japan.

So the Yamataï's atmosphere is more something mythical than historical.

I hope my explanation is clear

I think the OP in this thread is the same as the question in the Game Preview from BGG.CON 2016: Yamataï blog, and just want to move the thread from the blogpost to the forum. OK.


"So much in common in their past" is a reflection of ignorance. It seems that it is generally accepted to be okay for people to have self righteous political correctness when it comes to women representation in games or "African American" representation in games. Perhaps it is because these demographics are more easily apparent to 'Western' cultures. Why is creating and endorsing Asian stereotypes not equally offensive? There is a certain amount of double standards which people are willing to accept when it concerns a demographic which is not closely within their frame of consciousness.

I'm Asian and have experienced the "are you Chinese or Japanese" phenomenon many times. When I saw the cover art I rolled my eyes, but I'm not offended--just amused at how artists get it wrong so often. Perhaps my lack of outrage is because while Asians are a minority here in the States, they aren't particularly oppressed. I'm offended when women are objectified or when historically and currently oppressed races are portrayed as caricatures, or worse not portrayed at all, but for myself the lack of "proper" Asian representation doesn't offend me. I cannot, however, speak for all Asians and I know it's a sensitive topic for some.

On the flipside, let's not pretend the mashup isn't at the very least silly. It's set in Japan (Yamatai) but the people are in Chinese dress. I'm sure some of us would ridicule a game set in Germany where the people are dressed in kilts. That's about the level of conflation we're talking about here. Nothing to get offended about IMO, but certainly worthy of a healthy eye-roll despite all good intentions from the artist, I'm sure. No doubt the style is beautiful, but the substance leaves a bit to be desired.


I think this sums it up well. It has a bit of what generic fantasy does with conflating or mixing various European cultures that often didn't even exist at the same time as each other. That said, it's still kind of...dumb? Why does a game where everything else looks Chinese need torii gates and Japanese names? If you are going to create a generic East Asian insured fantasy world perhaps look to Avatar the Last Airbender for inspiration. They borrowed primarily from Chinese architecture, clothing, etc., but still managed to create something relatively original that didn't feel purely like a misrepresentation of a given culture. Also, at the risk of opening up another can of worms, it seems like one thing to do this with your own culture's heritage, as in the case of generic European style fantasy, and another to do it with someone else's.
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bruno cathala
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sthrjo wrote:
A quick look in Wikipedia tells me that noone knows where Yamatai was located for sure (or even at all), and that it is the Atlantis of the East, and a mix of China and Japan seems thematically appropriate since it occurs in both historical/mythical sources, plus Korea.


That's exactly why we choosed to create our own legend, and our own pictural environment, inspired by these different cultures
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sthrjo wrote:
A quick look in Wikipedia tells me that noone knows where Yamataï was located for sure (or even at all), and that it is the Atlantis of the East, and a mix of China and Japan seems thematically appropriate since it occurs in both historical/mythical sources, plus Korea.

Here it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaumatei
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sthrjo wrote:
A quick look in Wikipedia tells me that noone knows where Yamataï was located for sure (or even at all), and that it is the Atlantis of the East, and a mix of China and Japan seems thematically appropriate since it occurs in both historical/mythical sources, plus Korea.


Although the exact location of Yamatai is still in debate, it is generally accepted that Yamatai was located somewhere in Japan. I'm a Japanese and am a bit uncomfortable about the theming of the game. It would be nicer if the title is 'Hourai' or 'Husou' (both are the name of island in Chinese legends). We learn Yamatai in history classes and everything look very different from what we know about 'Yamatai'. Also, most of the specialists are from Japanese myth/legends, a few of them are not, which is strange to me (Think that you find Odin in Olympus).
But hey, this is a game, and I'm fine if the game is good. Now I'm really looking forward to the game.
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XazeChespan Uchuc6aphudUV
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I'm just a little tired of games with such mixed up cliche "oriental" artwork like this. Lots of these "asian themed" games are like this (Takenoko is another good example). When the artwork is all mixed up like this, it just leaves the artist/designer looking ignorant and playing on stereotypes. And this happens with lots of different cultures (like most "arabian" games). But yeah, I guess since it's "fantasy" you can just do whatever you feel like.
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Nathan T
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FWIW, I just became aware of this game in an ad on the Ticket To Ride app and thought it looked interesting, so I came on here immediately and tried to get a little more info about it. Unfortunately, I'm simply not interested in buying a game with a Japanese title and ignorantly conflated theming. There are too many great games out there with great themes.

I'm not saying anyone should agree with this conclusion, but I did want to get one consumer's feedback to the designers/publishers should they be reviewing this thread -- it seems like an easily avoidable pitfall.
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Mike n Phyllis Snedeker
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It could be titled "Choppa Loppa Ding Dong" and I'd still be buying. The pedigree is excellent and the designers & Artists have stated repeatedly, this is a Fantasy/Mystical theme. I just want to make sure it becomes available before Pres. Trump locks our borders and we can't get it!! whistle

Or smuggle it under the "wall" I'm still in! cool
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Steve
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MentatYP wrote:
a game set in Germany where the people are dressed in kilts.

Sounds amazing! Where's the Kickstarter?
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baronholbach wrote:
FWIW, I just became aware of this game in an ad on the Ticket To Ride app and thought it looked interesting, so I came on here immediately and tried to get a little more info about it. Unfortunately, I'm simply not interested in buying a game with a Japanese title and ignorantly conflated theming. There are too many great games out there with great themes.

I'm not saying anyone should agree with this conclusion, but I did want to get one consumer's feedback to the designers/publishers should they be reviewing this thread -- it seems like an easily avoidable pitfall.

To tell the truth, even though I can tell the difference between Japanese and Chinese easily, I think the art is actually quite fitting for the following reasons:
1) Yamatai was an autonomous island king(queen?)dom situated between China and Japan; which may explain why it has a mish-mash of cultures.
2) Yamatai no longer exists (or lost, as much as we can tell) and we cannot be sure that the artist is wrong or right in his vision
3) Even if the island is now part of modern-day Japan, hundreds of years had passed. How are we to know that their culture hadn't changed from what is shown on this board game to how it is now?

Now, what I personally felt lacking, and disappointed for a missed opportunity, is delving more into the Jomon culture. With its distinct art style, it would have been much easily represented to be totally unique, alien and intriguing. What's more, this thread would be moot.
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blackgauntlet wrote:

To tell the truth, even though I can tell the difference between Japanese and Chinese easily, I think the art is actually quite fitting for the following reasons:
1) Yamatai was an autonomous island king(queen?)dom situated between China and Japan; which may explain why it has a mish-mash of cultures.
2) Yamatai no longer exists (or lost, as much as we can tell) and we cannot be sure that the artist is wrong or right in his vision
3) Even if the island is now part of modern-day Japan, hundreds of years had passed. How are we to know that their culture hadn't changed from what is shown on this board game to how it is now?

I'm not a historian, but I would like to tell something about Yamatai as an average Japanese (I believe).
- It is generally accepted that Yamatai was located in (modern-day) Japan. And there were no Samurai or Ninja in Yamatai. Yamatai in history was much more primitive society compared to this game.
- Chinese record at that period said that Yamatai people had tatoo, wore simple clothings (something like roman tunic) without hats/crowns.
- Torii (a type of prestige building in the game) first appeared in Japanese history a few hundreds years after Yamatai.
- Most of the specialists in the game are from Japanese myth. However, a few of them are completely out of place (Ananda from Nepal, Fu Hsi from Chinese myth), which seems inconsistent to me.

These things won't break the game. I think the illustrations are fantastic and the theme will work for the game. Still, I hope that DoW could take more time on research, which would make the game even better.
BTW, Yamatai is one of the biggest mystery in Japanese history and I'm happy if you are interested in our history/culture.
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black gauntlet
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el_co wrote:

BTW, Yamatai is one of the biggest mystery in Japanese history and I'm happy if you are interested in our history/culture.

Yeah, if only more could be done.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/5419986...
 
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Matthieu Fontaines
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Strange, I can't find the topic on 5 tribes demanding where exactly is Naqala and why there is a mix of arabic culture.

Maybe because those 2 games are set in fantasy versions of middle east / asia
 
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Jérémie Fleury
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I think it's great that people debate on this aspect of the artworks and game atmosphere. I thank you all for this because it's interesting to have differents points of view.

But when people talk of "my" ignorance, I want to express myself.

You know, as an illustrator, I don't want to offence anyone. I just want to make your game experience great and beautiful. All games need a lot of hard work and Yamataï was a unique experience.

I have already worked on games where the historical aspect is the center of the gameplay (Timeline for example). I always use good references for these games just to get nothing wrong (You can see Timeline Russia history, British history and Quebec). You don't have any artistic freedom for the pictures except for the cover.

For Yamataï, I wanted to make something unique and well crafted. With original characters, clothes and architectures. I used Chinese and Japanese references from differents eras. But I also used my own imagination because I think it's a really important thing to have some artistic freedom to realise something original. We are in a true world of fantasy.
When Days of Wonder told me about the Yamataï situation between China and Japan, it inspired me a lot.

Also, I'm a big fan of JRPG (Japanese role playing games). They are mostly inspired by occidental culture which they interpret freely ... and I find this amazing! There are often some suprising things but that's ok for me.

You must welcome this game with its unique style, and enjoy this universe while you play.

I am sorry if I can not express myself more often, but writing in English takes me a long time!
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