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In Country: Vietnam 1965-75» Forums » Rules

Subject: When do the Allies get their air units back? rss

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suPUR DUEper
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The sequence of play (4.2) has two phases where air units are moved to avl: 1) In the Allied Reinf and Refit Phase and 2) In the Air Unit Recovery Phase at the end of the turn.

However, in the air rules (11.1) it says that air units can only be used once per turn and they are returned to avl in the Reorg and Refit Phase.

I am assuming the error is in the sequence of play rules, but I just want to be sure as this is a big swing.

Speaking of Sequence of Play, it appears that there are also two phases for Communist units to recover suppression (I assume that the first one is wrong. Ditto, there are two sentences that tell you to flip face up Communist units face down. I assume one is superfluous as well.
 
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Manuel Aguilar
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An Air unit can only be used once per game turn during 4.2 I a) bombing North Vietnam, 4.2 I e) defensive air phase, or 4.2 II d) offensive air phase. So you use an air unit then it goes to the "used" box (ignore "completed" box). During the Allied reinforcement phase you move air units from the "used" box to the "available" box. Practically speaking, all this means is that any air unit used in one air phase won't be available for use in the immediately following air phase. This was asked over on ConsimWorld in the Forum at post # 229 and answered in post # 234.

I really can't remember about the suppression recovery. I think that recovery only occurred for each side in their respective suppression recovery phases. I believe this recovery was automatic for Allied units and conditional for Communists units. The Communist units needed to not be in a Allied ZOC to recover.

Hope that helps.

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suPUR DUEper
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Hi Manny,

Thanks for the quick answer. Yeah, that's where I landed too (well, except that it is possible to use a unit twice in a given game turn given the sequence of play (i.e. you could use in the Communist turn, get it back in the Allied Reinf Phase, and burn it again in the Allied Air Phase). I just wanted to make sure that there weren't 2 recovery phases as the sequence of play implies.

Also, if I read the bombing North Vietnam rule right, you have to commit those planes to that mission for an entire month.
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Manuel Aguilar
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Below is the rule pasted from the living rules, section 11.1

"Each bombarding air unit represents one point of bombardment strength. Each bombarding unit may only perform one mission per game turn. Then, at the beginning of each Allied Reinforcement, Reorganization and Refitting Phase, all used air units are returned to the available pool."

Those two consecutive sentences from the rules can't both be right.

Below is the answer Joe Miranda gave over in CSW post # 234

[Question]
6. Rule 11.1: “Each bombarding unit may only perform one mission per game turn". But the sequence of play in 4.2 describes the Allied player "return(ing) all utilized air.. to the Available Box" after the Communist turn, and "mov(ing) all Allied Air units … to the Available Box" in the Recovery Phase following the Allied turn. This implies the Allied can perform one mission per PLAYER turn. Which is correct?

[Answer]
Once per game turn.

In the absence of clear rules, I went with the designer's answer.
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suPUR DUEper
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When exactly does Joe say you get the air back? Presumably at the end of the turn instead of the middle.

If so, that actually helps the Allies alot. This means they can hammer the Communists in the offensive air phase on turn 5, get their air back at the end of the turn, and then crush the units they suppressed in turn 5 in the defensive air phase of 6.

The way the sequence of play currently reads, any air units that are used in turn 5 are unavl in the defensive phase of turn 6. And the communists can get unsuppressed in between the def and off air phase.

This minor glitch has huge implications depending on the ruling and timing of the recovery. When you played, when did you perform recovery?

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suPUR DUEper
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Ironically, the living rules ain't so living.... They still show two communist suppression recovery phases and two air recovery phases....

I am really liking this game but the rules are killing me.... whistle

In the living rules they don't have the TET or '70 reinforcement charts either.

I am trying to make some game aides to upload here (sequence of play, reinforcement charts, and sortable campaign placement/withdrawal tables) but man, it is not easy....
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Manuel Aguilar
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You wrote that "the rules ain't so living."

Uh, no they ain't! I think that is a common problem with many of their magazine games.

As for your question of how I played the air units?

I'm pretty sure I played it the way it is listed in the sequence of play. Joe's answer may have come out too late for my AAR game.

So yes, in my game a unit could go in consecutive defensive air and offensive air phases of the same turn. However those units used in the offensive air phase would not be available in the defensive air phase of the following turn.

I also played the rules as written sequence of play concerning the Communist suppression recovery. They got to recover in their reinforcement/refit phase if not in an enemy ZOC and again in their suppression recovery phase without the ZOC restriction.

It has been 3 years but if I recall correctly it kind of worked out like this. If you suppress a Commie unit in a defensive air phase, it will recover but it's attack will suffer. If you suppress it during an offensive air phase, and manage to keep it in a ZOC through the next defensive air phase, it will be easier to kill albeit with air units that were held back the previous air phase. Keeping Communist units in a ZOC is harder than it looks because of the terrain, hence the need for light troops or airmoble troops. You kind of have to corner them.

I think this works out because the ZOC of many allied units are negated by rough, jungle, marsh terrain (i.e. most of Vietnam). So you have all these little cat and mouse operations going on all the time.

Yeah, the rules are a headache, but playing enough turns of a campaign will kind of illustrate how the conflict was a war of points and not lines. Due to the fact that victory points are tabulated every turn during a campaign game the fighting is literally non-stop. There is continuous combat somewhere on the map every turn.

Anyhoo,

I look forward to your play aids.
Good luck.





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