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Masmorra: Dungeons of Arcadia» Forums » Rules

Subject: Ganging up rss

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Will M
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When monsters gang up on a hero, the rules say "if there is more than one monster in the same room as your Hero, you must fight all of them, one after the other, in any order you choose".

If for example I'm fighting a Goblin and an Orc and I used Algus' Fireball ability to generate 3 bow symbols, would I be able to defeat a Goblin using two of the bow symbols, then use the remaining bow symbol to help fight the Orc? Or is the remaining bow symbol lost after fighting the Goblin?
 
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chang chang

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u still have the remaining bow... when u regenerate symbols they have to be use on the room that you generate then.

per the rule wrote:
Symbols can only be used in the same room where they were generated. If your Hero leaves that room, any unspent symbols are immediately lost.


there is no other way to lose symbols that I`m aware of.
what made u think that they get lost in between the 2 fights?

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Will M
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chang_1910 wrote:
what made u think that they get lost in between the 2 fights?

I only questioned it because I read in the Ganging Up section of the rulebook on page 11, it says "you must fight all of them, one after the other" - the one after the other part made me wonder if you had to deal with each fight separately, and thus lose unused symbols in between.

But I guess thematically that Algus shoots the fireball at the Goblin, killing it, and that some of the fire also hits the Orc, causing 1 damage to it.

Thanks for your quick answer.
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chang chang

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ok cool
and no problem, I'm bored at work lol.
glad I could help, I think I`m doing that right
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Chuck Hurd
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I agree that you don't lose the "extra" symbols, but I don't understand the "one after another" rule. Does that have relevance somehow? Maybe in certain scenarios I can't think of? It seems you are essentially fighting them all at once, adding up whatever damage you can make and divvying it up amongst the monsters, then taking the overall payback hits and blocking with whatever shields you can muster. It just feels like one big fight and I don't yet see where in matters in what order you kill the monsters.
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chang chang

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well, it matters if you want to use / do something that their ability is affecting.

lets say that, to follow poster OP, you want to use your ability fireball, but you are fighting a dark watcher and a X other monster. U cant use the fireball ability against X monster, unless you had enough dice to kill the dark watcher 1st without using any other ability.

So far situation like that are the one that monster affect each other and the order is important.

the thing I`m not sure I`m playing right in multiple monster is if this count like one big combat or multiple... meaning can I use potion in between monsters?

let say I have 4HP left, and run into a group of 2 monster each doing 2HP payback.. can I kill one, take the hit (lets assume I had no defense dice, just potion), heal and then fight the other?

we have being playing as one big fight, hence no potion in between fights, but it had resulted in some catastrophic random outcomes, so we are starting to doubt LOL
 
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Peter Brooks
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chang_1910 wrote:
well, it matters if you want to use / do something that their ability is affecting.

lets say that, to follow poster OP, you want to use your ability fireball, but you are fighting a dark watcher and a X other monster. U cant use the fireball ability against X monster, unless you had enough dice to kill the dark watcher 1st without using any other ability.

So far situation like that are the one that monster affect each other and the order is important.

the thing I`m not sure I`m playing right in multiple monster is if this count like one big combat or multiple... meaning can I use potion in between monsters?

let say I have 4HP left, and run into a group of 2 monster each doing 2HP payback.. can I kill one, take the hit (lets assume I had no defense dice, just potion), heal and then fight the other?

we have being playing as one big fight, hence no potion in between fights, but it had resulted in some catastrophic random outcomes, so we are starting to doubt LOL


It is my understanding you are playing correctly. You shouldn't have time to use a potion if engaged with multiple monsters (one big combat), so it makes sense IMO, and you can only use potions (to heal) outside of combat.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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chang_1910 wrote:
well, it matters if you want to use / do something that their ability is affecting.

lets say that, to follow poster OP, you want to use your ability fireball, but you are fighting a dark watcher and a X other monster. U cant use the fireball ability against X monster, unless you had enough dice to kill the dark watcher 1st without using any other ability.

So far situation like that are the one that monster affect each other and the order is important.

Dark Watcher says you can't use Hero abilities while in the room with him, so you are suggesting if you kill him first you can then use your abilities on the other monsters. But the rulebook says they gang up and all monsters abilities are active for the duration of the fight. That is why I don't see any importance in which order you fight them.

Page 11:
"If there is more than one monster in the same room as your Hero, you must fight all of them, one after the other, in any order you choose.
But, all of the monsters’ abilities (see ‘Monsters’ on page 18)
are active until they are defeated!"

I took this to mean that ALL abilities are active until they are ALL defeated. Different from: "Each of the monsters' abilities are active until they are defeated!" The RAW is worded as a collective.
And the use of the word "But," makes it clear that whatever order you choose doesn't really matter because their abilities are active anyway.

Is there another way to interpret monster abilities in ganging up?


chang_1910 wrote:
the thing I`m not sure I`m playing right in multiple monster is if this count like one big combat or multiple... meaning can I use potion in between monsters?...

Definitely one big fight with no break in between monsters. They are ganging up.
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Chuck Hurd
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I just thought of one reason the order in which you fight the monsters is important - and that is in the case you know you will lose the fight - you get to choose which monsters you defeated (if any) before you die.
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Trueflight Silverwing
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Carcking wrote:
I just thought of one reason the order in which you fight the monsters is important - and that is in the case you know you will lose the fight - you get to choose which monsters you defeated (if any) before you die.


^ this is really the only reason it matters. You get to pcik and choose what monsters that you actually defeat, to you can control what payback attacks you are going to get as well as how much xp you are going to gain from the encounter. I think the "one after another" ruling is just to emphasize that you have to fight all of them each turn
 
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chang chang

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Carcking wrote:
chang_1910 wrote:
well, it matters if you want to use / do something that their ability is affecting.

lets say that, to follow poster OP, you want to use your ability fireball, but you are fighting a dark watcher and a X other monster. U cant use the fireball ability against X monster, unless you had enough dice to kill the dark watcher 1st without using any other ability.

So far situation like that are the one that monster affect each other and the order is important.

Dark Watcher says you can't use Hero abilities while in the room with him, so you are suggesting if you kill him first you can then use your abilities on the other monsters. But the rulebook says they gang up and all monsters abilities are active for the duration of the fight. That is why I don't see any importance in which order you fight them.

Page 11:
"If there is more than one monster in the same room as your Hero, you must fight all of them, one after the other, in any order you choose.
But, all of the monsters’ abilities (see ‘Monsters’ on page 18)
are active until they are defeated!"

I took this to mean that ALL abilities are active until they are ALL defeated. Different from: "Each of the monsters' abilities are active until they are defeated!" The RAW is worded as a collective.
And the use of the word "But," makes it clear that whatever order you choose doesn't really matter because their abilities are active anyway.

Is there another way to interpret monster abilities in ganging up?


hmm...
you make very good points. we are playing that once one die, the effect goes away...

we though it even added tactic. e.g. in a coop mode, we had the watcher and malaphys (cant spell that for the live of me) so we kill the watcher without using abilities and then we could use then to affect the others monsters. That would have change things a lot, if so we needed to kill watcher in one turn and THEN on a second round or another turn kill malaphys and the other monsters

I would REALLY like an official answer on this.

Patrick?
 
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Richard Castle
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Ender02 wrote:
Carcking wrote:
I just thought of one reason the order in which you fight the monsters is important - and that is in the case you know you will lose the fight - you get to choose which monsters you defeated (if any) before you die.


^ this is really the only reason it matters. You get to pcik and choose what monsters that you actually defeat, to you can control what payback attacks you are going to get as well as how much xp you are going to gain from the encounter. I think the "one after another" ruling is just to emphasize that you have to fight all of them each turn


If you take on a strong monster and a weak one, and you know that you can range kill the strong one, you would fight it first to eleminate payback and then even if you don't have the dice to kill the weak monster, its payback may not be enough to kill you.
That's why monster by monster and in what order is important.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Bouncy wrote:
If you take on a strong monster and a weak one, and you know that you can range kill the strong one, you would fight it first to eleminate payback and then even if you don't have the dice to kill the weak monster, its payback may not be enough to kill you.
That's why monster by monster and in what order is important.

You could fight the weak one first and the strong one second to the same outcome.

Really the only point to saying that you fight them in the order you want is that you get to decide which monsters remain after the fight, if any. If you can't kill them all then you decide where to apply your hits.
 
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Richard Castle
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Carcking wrote:
Bouncy wrote:
If you take on a strong monster and a weak one, and you know that you can range kill the strong one, you would fight it first to eleminate payback and then even if you don't have the dice to kill the weak monster, its payback may not be enough to kill you.
That's why monster by monster and in what order is important.

You could fight the weak one first and the strong one second to the same outcome.

Really the only point to saying that you fight them in the order you want is that you get to decide which monsters remain after the fight, if any. If you can't kill them all then you decide where to apply your hits.


It does matter:

I could have 3HP, 4 ranged attack, kill a 4HP major monster and avoid 4 Payback which would have killed me.
Then, when I have no attack left, the 2 HP minor monster might get an automatic 2 Payback.
I'm down to 1 HP and survive to claim the bounty from the major monster.

The other way round, I kill the minor monster with 2 ranged, avoiding 2 Payback.
I have 2 ranged left against the 4HP major monster, which has no effect and then I receive 4 Payback which kills me.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Bouncy wrote:
It does matter:

I could have 3HP, 4 ranged attack, kill a 4HP major monster and avoid 4 Payback which would have killed me.
Then, when I have no attack left, the 2 HP minor monster might get an automatic 2 Payback.
I'm down to 1 HP and survive to claim the bounty from the major monster.

The other way round, I kill the minor monster with 2 ranged, avoiding 2 Payback.
I have 2 ranged left against the 4HP major monster, which has no effect and then I receive 4 Payback which kills me.

Right, but the point is you could have used your no-hit attack on the minor monster first, then taken card of the major monster, and the result would be the same.
As long as you're deciding that the major monster must go it doesn't matter in what order you fight them, or in what order you apply your dice.
The rule is there really to just say that you can apply your hits how you like and essentially decide which monsters you will defeat and which you will leave behind.

It would be a different case if monster abilities went away the moment they are killed, but by rule they do not. All monster abilities endure until the end of the fight, so saying you kill one before the other has no effect on the result.
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Richard Castle
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Right you are, I keep forgetting that you can opt to not fight back against any monster.
 
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Richard Castle
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Carcking wrote:
chang_1910 wrote:
well, it matters if you want to use / do something that their ability is affecting.

lets say that, to follow poster OP, you want to use your ability fireball, but you are fighting a dark watcher and a X other monster. U cant use the fireball ability against X monster, unless you had enough dice to kill the dark watcher 1st without using any other ability.

So far situation like that are the one that monster affect each other and the order is important.

Dark Watcher says you can't use Hero abilities while in the room with him, so you are suggesting if you kill him first you can then use your abilities on the other monsters. But the rulebook says they gang up and all monsters abilities are active for the duration of the fight. That is why I don't see any importance in which order you fight them.

Page 11:
"If there is more than one monster in the same room as your Hero, you must fight all of them, one after the other, in any order you choose.
But, all of the monsters’ abilities (see ‘Monsters’ on page 18)
are active until they are defeated!"

I took this to mean that ALL abilities are active until they are ALL defeated. Different from: "Each of the monsters' abilities are active until they are defeated!" The RAW is worded as a collective.
And the use of the word "But," makes it clear that whatever order you choose doesn't really matter because their abilities are active anyway.

Is there another way to interpret monster abilities in ganging up?


chang_1910 wrote:
the thing I`m not sure I`m playing right in multiple monster is if this count like one big combat or multiple... meaning can I use potion in between monsters?...

Definitely one big fight with no break in between monsters. They are ganging up.



I think Chang's interpretation is correct.

The rule means that if a Dark Watcher and an orc are in the same room and you choose to fight the orc first, the Dark Watcher's ability will still affect you despite the fact that you aren't currently fighting it. That is what ganging up refers to.
So it is important which order you tackle the monsters as it would be to your benefit to kill the DW first to free up your ability to use on the orc.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Could they have written this more clearly?
From page 11:

"Ganging Up
Monsters are not so noble as Heroes, and they are quite happy
to team up on a Hero to inflict more damage. If there is more
than one monster in the same room as your Hero, you must
fight all of them, one after the other, in any order you choose.
But, all of the monsters’ abilities (see ‘Monsters’ on page 18)
are active until they are defeated!

You only receive the rewards for fighting—such as Treasure Cards
or XP—after your Hero has fought all of the monsters in the
room and only if you have defeated at least one of the monsters
and your Hero survives the fight!" (the bolded text is original)

It seems clear IMO - You fight them all continually until you're done and all of their abilities are active until you're done. There is no in-between and all monster abilities endure. You can't disregard the use of and meaning of the word "but" in the beginning of the third sentence.
 
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Richard Castle
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"But, all of the monsters’ abilities (see ‘Monsters’ on page 18)
are active until they are defeated!"

This is the bit that I think should be interpreted to mean that a monster that has an ability that can affect you, will affect you even when you're fighting another monster in the room, not just the monster with the ability.

"Until they are defeated!" means until any monster with such an ability is defeated. It would make no sense from a thematic or mechanics POV for a monster's ability to continue having an effect after it dies.
The rule is instructing you to pick the order you fight in sensibly if you want to reduce any mitigating effects from other monsters in the room.

Perhaps a better wording would have been:

But, every monster's ability (see ‘Monsters’ on page 18)
is active until each is defeated!

I think bad grammar is causing confusion here.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Bouncy wrote:
"But, all of the monsters’ abilities (see ‘Monsters’ on page 18)
are active until they are defeated!"

This is the bit that I think should be interpreted to mean that a monster that has an ability that can affect you, will affect you even when you're fighting another monster in the room, not just the monster with the ability.

"Until they are defeated!" means until any monster with such an ability is defeated. It would make no sense from a thematic or mechanics POV for a monster's ability to continue having an effect after it dies.
The rule is instructing you to pick the order you fight in sensibly if you want to reduce any mitigating effects from other monsters in the room.

Perhaps a better wording would have been:

But, every monster's ability (see ‘Monsters’ on page 18)
is active until each is defeated!

I think bad grammar is causing confusion here.

I think the text you are looking for is "Each monster's ability is active until that monster is defeated." It's not there.

The "but" is a qualifier of the sentence before. It tells you that it doesn't matter in what order you take down a monster, that monster's ability is active until the fight is over.
 
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Richard Castle
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The "but" is emphasising that this is an exception from the usual situation where a monster's ability only affects its own combat when it is fighting you in single combat.
In gangs, its ability affects the combat of other monsters as well.

I deliberately chose "every" because "each" can be interpreted to mean that each monster is handled individually on a case-by-case basis, without the abilities of other monsters being taken into account, which isn't the intention.

I don't think the rulebook wording is intended to imply that abilities continue after death, just that they affect all combat whilst active.

Guess we'll have to agree to differ until the obligatory official FAQ
 
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Peter Brooks
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Bouncy wrote:
The "but" is emphasising that this is an exception from the usual situation where a monster's ability only affects its own combat when it is fighting you in single combat.
In gangs, its ability affects the combat of other monsters as well.

I deliberately chose "every" because "each" can be interpreted to mean that each monster is handled individually on a case-by-case basis, without the abilities of other monsters being taken into account, which isn't the intention.

I don't think the rulebook wording is intended to imply that abilities continue after death, just that they affect all combat whilst active.

Guess we'll have to agree to differ until the obligatory official FAQ


I agree that abilities don't continue after death, and to me death only comes with the resolution of combat with all parties (after the last payback is dealt).

For example:
Monster 1 and Monster 2 are in a room. Monster 2 has an ability that buffs Monster 1. You only have enough dice to kill one of them because of the buffs. You choose to fight Monster 2 first so that it dies in combat. Both Monster 2 and Monster 1 then payback. Combat ends and Monster 2 is removed from the dungeon (the buff is removed with him).

To me, at that point you could combat again with Monster 1, if desired, provided you had enough symbols to now kill it since it no longer has buffs active.

Maybe I have it wrong, but that's how I'm choosing to play until proven otherwise by the designer(s).
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Mark Blasco

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Carcking wrote:
Bouncy wrote:
"But, all of the monsters’ abilities (see ‘Monsters’ on page 18)
are active until they are defeated!"

This is the bit that I think should be interpreted to mean that a monster that has an ability that can affect you, will affect you even when you're fighting another monster in the room, not just the monster with the ability.

"Until they are defeated!" means until any monster with such an ability is defeated. It would make no sense from a thematic or mechanics POV for a monster's ability to continue having an effect after it dies.
The rule is instructing you to pick the order you fight in sensibly if you want to reduce any mitigating effects from other monsters in the room.

Perhaps a better wording would have been:

But, every monster's ability (see ‘Monsters’ on page 18)
is active until each is defeated!

I think bad grammar is causing confusion here.

I think the text you are looking for is "Each monster's ability is active until that monster is defeated." It's not there.

The "but" is a qualifier of the sentence before. It tells you that it doesn't matter in what order you take down a monster, that monster's ability is active until the fight is over.


I see the "but" qualifier as meaning that even though you are fighting the monsters one at a time, all of their abilities are in play while they are alive. Once you kill one of them, they are defeated, and their abilities no longer apply.

To me this is also backed up by the fact that it says you much fight all of them, one after another, in any order you choose. Since you are fighting them one after another, you are also defeating them one after another, therefor, once one is defeated, it's ability should no longer have an effect the combat with the following monster.

 
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Peter Brooks
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markblasco wrote:

I see the "but" qualifier as meaning that even though you are fighting the monsters one at a time, all of their abilities are in play while they are alive. Once you kill one of them, they are defeated, and their abilities no longer apply.

To me this is also backed up by the fact that it says you much fight all of them, one after another, in any order you choose. Since you are fighting them one after another, you are also defeating them one after another, therefor, once one is defeated, it's ability should no longer have an effect the combat with the following monster.



Since they are ganging up, I feel like you're fighting them all at the same time. It is just laid out as one after another in the rules for the sake of dealing and resolving damage, to show that there are no breaks in combat (hence no rewards until everyone is fought), and to show that you don't need to kill in a specific order (you can kill bosses before minions for example, which in some games is not the case, or you can fight the die that is furthest from you in the room for example).

I don't feel like any enemy would actually 'wait their turn' and subsequently lose their buff (ability) before they attack. I mean it is a gang up, conceivably from as many sides as possible, so in real time all attacks happen at the same time.
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Chuck Hurd
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Bouncy wrote:
The "but" is emphasising that this is an exception from the usual situation where a monster's ability only affects its own combat when it is fighting you in single combat.
In gangs, its ability affects the combat of other monsters as well.

I deliberately chose "every" because "each" can be interpreted to mean that each monster is handled individually on a case-by-case basis, without the abilities of other monsters being taken into account, which isn't the intention.

I don't think the rulebook wording is intended to imply that abilities continue after death, just that they affect all combat whilst active.

Guess we'll have to agree to differ until the obligatory official FAQ

IMO, this is an interpretation of something that is not quite there, so yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. In my view it is one big fight (hence ganging up) and all abilities are in effect for the duration. Your interpretation has little to do with ganging up. It feels more like a conga line of monsters and would make the game easier. I haven't played enough yet to say the game needs to be easier but I am inclined toward keeping any game tougher by default. Perhaps it's a matter of taste.
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