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The Arab-Israeli Wars» Forums » Rules

Subject: Egyptian 82mm Mortar rss

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michael dorazio
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Weapon Type in rulebook is "H".
Weapon Type on counter is "M".

Gotta be "H" if I'm using my brain correctly, right?
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Jim Millard
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Typo: Egyptian 82mm Mortar
cradleofmilk wrote:
Weapon Type in rulebook is "H".
Weapon Type on counter is "M".

Gotta be "H" if I'm using my brain correctly, right?


Rulebook typo: should be "M", which is correct. Reboot brain.
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michael dorazio
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Here's what's throwing me - the UFT doesn't list the 82mm as having indirect fire capabilities (no dot in the IF column). So I figured that ruled out Weapon Type M. Even though common sense tells me a "MORTAR" should use IF and be Weapon Type M.

There should be a dot in that column, right?

Thanks.

Edited for several typos. Several more may exist.
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michael dorazio
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Of course, IF from this thing is useless in this scenario. Halving a "4" against those Israeli tanks does nothing. The 82mm is only the tiniest bit useful for adding 2 attack strength during DF and OF. TINIEST.

Gotta make a run for the border and score an Egyptian point for that unit's map exit. If it's questionable, even better to stay back and give the Israelis a point for its on-map existence at the scenario's end --- to avoid giving them 4 points for its destruction.
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Scott Clinton
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I concur.

If the same mortar, in basically the same game system, used by Russians in WW2 (i.e. Panzer Blitz) had indirect fire; then the Egyptians should have it in this game.

My two cents.

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Jim Millard
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cradleofmilk wrote:
Here's what's throwing me ... common sense ...


Don't focus too much on the use of the rules label "Indirect Fire" for the game mechanic and indirect fire / high-arc trajectory fire.

I will whip out the rules eventually to address this, but the smaller [i.e., 50/60/81/82mm] mortars are direct-support [as opposed to indirect or "IF"] weapons, doctrinally. There is a point at which the need for additional rules is outweighed by the fact that it is a niggling thing which bothers us.

AIW is a *great* game; sacrifices are sometimes made in the interest of playability. This might be such a case.

BTW, do NOT forget the use of SMOKE - I use these babies almost exclusively to fire SMOKE due to their relative inefficiency as a fire support weapon in many instances.
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Mark Neukom
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This question is addressed in the game errata . . . or at least in a compilation of errata done by Alan Arvold. Whether or not it is ‘official’ or not is outside my ken. The relevant passage is:

Quote:
Q: In Rule II.A.2.a (Indirect Fire) it says that only units with “M” or “(H)” type weapons Types [sic] may use indirect fire. What about the 76mm, 81mm, and 82mm mortars (both dismounted and mounted varieties)? These counters have an “M” printed on their counters but on the Unit Function Table they are listed as having a weapons type of “H”.

A: Treat these mortars as “M” for indirect fire purposes and as “H” for direct fire purposes.


Personally, I would prefer the 82mm and 81mm Mortar units to be Direct Fire and Opportunity Fire capable only, and not able to use Indirect Fire. I see the 82mm & 81mm Mortar counters as they appear in the game as direct infantry support assets, and generally not able to [easily] tie in to a comprehensive brigade- or division-level fire plan. As such, they are great at providing immediate suppressive fire and smoke cover for their parent company(ies) and/or battalions.

I believe that is what the original UFT entry — prior to being modified (incorrectly, I believe) by the errata — was attempting to portray: an effective, small-caliber, infantry transportable fire support asset, capable of medium range direct and opportunity fire . . . but not able to conduct indirect fire as we see it in the game. That is why the ‘mortars’ were given an “H” Weapon Type on the UFT — so that they wouldn’t run afoul of that rule that states that all “M” Weapon Types may use Indirect Fire.

Regarding the use of these small mortars, don’t expect they are going to give you tank-killing abilities: they aren’t designed for that. Instead, use them for Direct Fire against enemy Infantry-Class targets — especially ATGM teams. And, as Jim points out, try using them for defensive smoke-laying (to block a LOS/LOF from a particularly pesky threat), or in an offensive smoke-laying capacity (to cover avenues of approach for units in a breakthrough).




Mark Neukom


edited to add UFT blurb
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michael dorazio
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That is fantastic. Thanks a ton.
Smoke and beating up NA targets makes sense.
In B-4 (without Advanced Rules) neither option exists, making the 82mm useless.
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Robert McConnell
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BuqBuq801 wrote:

A: Treat these mortars as “M” for indirect fire purposes and as “H” for direct fire purposes.


Quote:
Regarding the use of these small mortars, don’t expect they are going to give you tank-killing abilities: they aren’t designed for that. Instead, use them for Direct Fire against enemy Infantry-Class targets — especially ATGM teams. And, as Jim points out, try using them for defensive smoke-laying (to block a LOS/LOF from a particularly pesky threat), or in an offensive smoke-laying capacity (to cover avenues of approach for units in a breakthrough).

Mark Neukom

edited to add UFT blurb


I agree with Mark. These mortars are not going to break an enemy defense, but they can make things uncomfortable for stationary Israeli units (infantry, guns, and mortars). If you call in a destruction mission (raises attack factor to "12") you can possibly do a job on one defender and gradually nibble away at the hex's occupants. But smoke (one of the most underrated "combat multipliers") can make these babies shine. Even if you don't kill the ATGM team, smoke blinds them if you drop it adjacent- just saying. Oh, one more thing: you should "house rule" these and the other mortar units- they should be able to indirect fire in the same turn as a call for indirect fire. That will really raise their value, as in real life, they are the most responsive units to calls for indirect fire.

Bob
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