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Subject: (BOX 4 SPOILER) Fulfilling two milestones in the same turn rss

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Brad McCoy
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Our game is extremely tight on the colonies front. Each of our players had 2 colonies when Patmos hit the board. I conquered Patmos last game, and taking Patmos also fulfilled the 'Three Colonies' milestone.

We accidentally let me claim both milestones and it consequently earned me 10 points and ended the game. We are in the process of discussing how to roll it back and so far the logical verdict is that I earn the Patmos milestone, but could not claim the Three Colonies milestone until next turn. This would, of course, drastically change the game (and perhaps the winner), but I am wanting to fix it for the rules to be upheld.

1) Was what I did (simultaneously claiming both milestones) legal?
2) Does claiming milestones ALWAYS end your turn?
3) In the case of a) Conquering Patmos and b) Having Three Active Colonies, Patmos would happen first and there is no choice, that milestone must be claimed?

I am asking this because strategically it would be wiser to secure the three colonies milestone first, with knowledge of only scoring one milestone a turn.
 
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Aaron Guerra
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1. No. the rules do state only one milestone per turn.
2. Yes, the rule is claiming a milestone ends your turn.
3. You are allowed to choose. The rules state that if you complete two miles stones you must choose which one you take.

So i think that your game only had a minor mistake. You could have chosen to take the 3 colonies milestone and then everyone would have gotten one more turn before you claimed the Patmos milestone to end the game. Your group can decided how many more points to award each player based how many more points they might have been able to achieve given one more turn and that should take care of it.

Text of rule: 4. Claim a Milestone
If, after an action, you met the
requirements for one of the available
milestones, claim that milestone and
follow the instructions on the milestone
card. You may only claim one milestone
per turn. If you met the criteria for
more than one milestone in a turn, you must choose which to claim.
Sometimes claiming a milestone after your first action will end your turn.
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Brad McCoy
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Thanks that was very clear. Do you believe that I did not have the option to claim Three Active Colonies because the act of conquering Patmos occurred before the Colony entered my control (by placing a flipped Enmity Token to represent an active colony)?

In other words, I had to take the Patmos milestone because the action conquered Ker before I claimed the active colony - therefore I had no choice in the matter regardless?

 
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Joshua Addington
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That's not how I read the rule. It states
Quote:
If you met the criteria for more than one milestone in a turn, you must choose which to claim.
After the action had been completed, you were eligible for both milestones. That would give you the choice of which milestone to collect.
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Paul Howard
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Ending a milestone doesn't implicitly end your turn. The wording you posted above says sometimes for a reason. When you claim a milestone you read a book entry and that may state that it ends you turn (revealing Patmos is an example that does state your turn is over). If the milestone text in the book doesn't say it ends your turn then it doesn't.

That being said, you are only allowed to claim one a turn and technically you conquer Patmos (and should claim that) before you have 3 active colonies (that comes immediately after)
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Aaron Guerra
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Ok, I concede that the answer to 2. should be sometimes instead of an always.

However Paul, there is no discussion on one milestone claim being required to be taken over another. No hierarchy as it were to the milestones so if you qualify for two you get to choose. if one raid action takes over Patmos AND gives you three colonies, then you get to choose which one you take fist.
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Darren Nakamura
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Right, just because you have to take the colony of Ker in order to have three colonies in this situation doesn't mean you have to take the Milestone for taking Ker first.

At the end of your turn, you can claim a Milestone card. By the end of the described turn, there were two cards available. By the rules, the OP could have chosen either one of them.
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Becq
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Mostly rephrasing and emphasizing what others have said:

* You check for milestone completion after each action.
* If you can claim one or more milestones, and you haven't claimed a milestone after a previous action this turn, then you must claim one (and only one) milestone.
* You choose which milestone to claim, if you qualify for several.
* Your turn ends only if the milestone entry says it does.

My take is that once you satisfy the requirements for a milestone, you continue satisfying them unless you lose the qualification. So if you
(Spoilers related to the previous discussion)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
conquer Ker on turn X, you still will have conquered Ker on the turn X+1, X+2, etc. But if you have three colonies on turn X, then lose a colony before turn X+1, you will lose the opportunity (for now) to "have three colonies". So it *might* be safer to claim the "three colonies" milestone first, especially if another player is close to their third colony.

Note that I can't quote a rule for the this interpretation, though -- it just feels like common sense to me.
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Aaron Guerra
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I believe that the rules agree with your summary and the risk you outline is the risk you have to consider when deciding which milestone to take.
 
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Brad McCoy
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Thanks everyone. We rolled back 5 of my points since everyone lost a turn, and continuing from there. I think we hit one of the rarer situations in the game and just never had to claim two milestones before.
 
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j n
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This is a very interesting case for a couple of reasons.

- Would the game have ended on the conquest alone? If so, you actually maybe penalized yourself by taking both (as you could most likely claim the "have 3 active colonies" milestone on your first turn of the next game, giving you a huge glory boost towards another game win.
- Whichever one you take, someone theoretically could take the other (by building/conquering a 3rd colony of their own, or by conquering Ker from you!)

@Becq: what do you think should happen if someone chose the 3rd colony milestone, and the game ended before the conquest of Ker milestone is claimed? Do you get to claim it next game, or can it only be claimed when someone conquers it from you? We had some discussion along these lines earlier and I'm not sure either answer is really satisfying here. (Admittedly, this is also pretty corner-case!)
 
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Becq
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(Box 4 spoilers)
lactamaeon wrote:
@Becq: what do you think should happen if someone chose the
Spoiler (click to reveal)
3rd colony milestone, and the game ended before the conquest of Ker milestone is claimed? Do you get to claim it next game, or can it only be claimed when someone conquers it from you? We had some discussion along these lines earlier and I'm not sure either answer is really satisfying here. (Admittedly, this is also pretty corner-case!)

While I haven't seen that happen, here are my thoughts:

First, note that you can never voluntarily defer claiming a milestone. I mention this because otherwise, any interpretations for claiming credit for a past event could open up ways to game the system. For example, if I satisfy Milestone X now, but know that I'm going to lose the game anyway, why not "bank" that milestone until next game, so that I can set myself up for a big win? So let's be clear that this really only refers to a case where you find yourself able to claim two milestones during your turn, claim one, then the game ends before your next turn.

That said, I'd separate milestones into two broad categories: those that require your province to satisfy a certain conditions at the time it claims the milestone ("Have thing X"), and those that require a certain event to have occurred to claim the milestone ("Do thing Y").

For the first type, you only continue to qualify so long as the conditions continue to be met. So, using a Box 0 (non-spoiler) example, let's say you buy third treasure, then on your first action you build a third structure. After that action, you check for milestones, and find that you qualify for both, but are only allowed to claim one that turn. Both of them require you to "have" something, so as long as you still have that thing on your following turn -- and nobody else claims that milestone -- you may claim it on the following turn (or possibly later, if you manage to satisfy yet another milestone on the next turn). But generally speaking, you won't "Have thing X" on the first turn of the next game, so you won't qualify then and you will have lost your opportunity until you satisfy it again.

(Box 2 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Note that the "three active colony" milestone looks like an exception to this, but isn't. Even if you own three colonies at the start of the game, you won't qualify for the milestone because they aren't active -- though if you activate all three during the first winter, you would claim the milestone after your first action of the first turn.


For the second type, my thinking is that since you only need to have "Done thing Y", once you have done so you will satisfy the requirements of that milestone forever. Make sure the other players make a note of it, and write it down, if necessary. Keep in mind that there is (almost) always the risk that someone else will "Do thing Y" and claim the milestone, leaving you S.O.L.

Aside: by the time you open Box 4, you'll realize that
(Box 4 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
it's impossible for two people to "Use the Strange Chart to find the (octopus) island", so that milestone is safe to defer.


In the specific case you mention,
(Box 4 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I would say that you qualify as having conquered Ker "forever" and qualify as having three active colonies only until you no longer have them. Note also that if someone else conquered "the island formerly known as Ker" before that milestone was claimed, I'd let them claim it -- even though it's not Ker any more, strictly speaking.


I can't necessarily back any of those interpretations up with rule references, but that's the way I'd advocate interpreting the rules. Except for the initial bit about requiring you to claim milestones at the earliest allowed opportunity.
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j n
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Becq wrote:
(Box 4 spoilers)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Note also that if someone else conquered "the island formerly known as Ker" before that milestone was claimed, I'd let them claim it -- even though it's not Ker any more, strictly speaking.



You know, I had forgotten that bit momentarily, but it's enough to make me think you're probably right.
 
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Greg Filpus
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Becq wrote:
For the second type, my thinking is that since you only need to have "Done thing Y", once you have done so you will satisfy the requirements of that milestone forever. Make sure the other players make a note of it, and write it down, if necessary. Keep in mind that there is (almost) always the risk that someone else will "Do thing Y" and claim the milestone, leaving you S.O.L.


The problem with this interpretation is that in some cases you can't fully resolve thing Y without claiming the milestone.

(generally referring to a few different milestones that start in Box 2)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
All of the Unlock milestones that are accomplished as part of an Explore action have the thing you're finding as part of the exploration in the opened box.

The good news is that it's very difficult to accomplish those milestones on the same turn as another one, with the exception of (box 1/3 spoilers)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
finding a Tomb of the Ancients on the highest-difficulty site of an island (assuming that somehow that milestone hadn't been claimed yet). I guess you could say that you must resolve the Tomb milestone, and can defer the other one?
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j n
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GregF wrote:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

The good news is that it's very difficult to accomplish those milestones on the same turn as another one, with the exception of (box 1/3 spoilers)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
finding a Tomb of the Ancients on the highest-difficulty site of an island (assuming that somehow that milestone hadn't been claimed yet). I guess you could say that you must resolve the Tomb milestone, and can defer the other one?


The main exception, available from game 1: The Finest Treasures. Perfectly compatible with every other milestone.

Honestly, it makes me think the best way to resolve the corner cases is just to allow the player to claim both.
 
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Becq
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GregF wrote:
The problem with this interpretation is that in some cases you can't fully resolve thing Y without claiming the milestone.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Keep in mind that claiming milestones is done as a separate step after the completion of the action that qualifies you for it -- not as part of the action. So if you qualify during the claim milestones step for a "Do thing Y" milestone when you did thing Y an action ago, why would you not qualify for the same thing on the following turn, having done that thing the previous turn? If necessary, when you qualify for this sort of milestone but can't claim it, just announce to your group, "For the record, I have done thing Y". Write it down on a scrap paper, if necessary.

(Box 2 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
So let's say you buy a third treasure (Finest Treasures), then find a Tomb of the Ancients on your first action. After that action, you check for milestones, and must choose one. If you choose the tomb milestone, then resolution is simple (because a "have X" milestone is clearly able to be resolved later, assuming you still have the X). But if you pick the treasure one, you just mention to the group that you also count as having found the tomb, too (if everyone is forgetful or if the game ends before your next turn, just write it down). After the first action of the following turn, you note that you have, in fact, found a tomb of the ancients, and claim that milestone. Of course, if someone else finds a tomb of the ancients and claims the milestone before your next turn, you lose the opportunity.

As an additional aside, let's say that in the first example, you bought the third treasure, then sailed to an island, then explored and found that tomb. In this case you won't have a choice on which milestone to claim -- you MUST claim the treasure milestone after your sail action (the first opportunity to do so), and can't claim the tomb milestone after your explore action. (But you still count as having found the tomb for claiming the milestone later.)

Again, I'll stress that I don't have inside information on this question; this is how I would interpret it if it came up -- which it hasn't, in my campaign.

Note also that if you DON'T use an interpretation like this, it's possible to break the game. For example:
(Box 2 spoilers)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Let's say you buy your third treasure, then sail out to uncharted waters. At that point, you are required to resolve the uncharted waters, than after your action, you must claim the treasure milestone. Next, you explore using the octopus map, and succeed. At this point, you CAN'T claim the milestone, and therefore can't unlock the associated box, or place any island stickers, etc.
 
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j n
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Becq wrote:
GregF wrote:
The problem with this interpretation is that in some cases you can't fully resolve thing Y without claiming the milestone.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Keep in mind that claiming milestones is done as a separate step after the completion of the action that qualifies you for it -- not as part of the action. So if you qualify during the claim milestones step for a "Do thing Y" milestone when you did thing Y an action ago, why would you not qualify for the same thing on the following turn, having done that thing the previous turn? If necessary, when you qualify for this sort of milestone but can't claim it, just announce to your group, "For the record, I have done thing Y". Write it down on a scrap paper, if necessary.

(Box 2 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
So let's say you buy a third treasure (Finest Treasures), then find a Tomb of the Ancients on your first action. After that action, you check for milestones, and must choose one. If you choose the tomb milestone, then resolution is simple (because a "have X" milestone is clearly able to be resolved later, assuming you still have the X). But if you pick the treasure one, you just mention to the group that you also count as having found the tomb, too (if everyone is forgetful or if the game ends before your next turn, just write it down). After the first action of the following turn, you note that you have, in fact, found a tomb of the ancients, and claim that milestone. Of course, if someone else finds a tomb of the ancients and claims the milestone before your next turn, you lose the opportunity.

As an additional aside, let's say that in the first example, you bought the third treasure, then sailed to an island, then explored and found that tomb. In this case you won't have a choice on which milestone to claim -- you MUST claim the treasure milestone after your sail action (the first opportunity to do so), and can't claim the tomb milestone after your explore action. (But you still count as having found the tomb for claiming the milestone later.)

Again, I'll stress that I don't have inside information on this question; this is how I would interpret it if it came up -- which it hasn't, in my campaign.

Note also that if you DON'T use an interpretation like this, it's possible to break the game. For example:
(Box 2 spoilers)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Let's say you buy your third treasure, then sail out to uncharted waters. At that point, you are required to resolve the uncharted waters, than after your action, you must claim the treasure milestone. Next, you explore using the octopus map, and succeed. At this point, you CAN'T claim the milestone, and therefore can't unlock the associated box, or place any island stickers, etc.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
So your way could have someone discover a tomb of the ancients, but not actually place a tomb sticker until the next turn (after their first action!), when they open the box. Similarly, it might not place Patmos/Ker when the explore action was complete (as the chart tells you to!) but potentially on a future turn or game.


From a purely game design perspective, any of these cases feel super awkward to me compared to just letting the player claim an extra milestone if it comes up.
 
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Becq
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lactamaeon wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
So your way could have someone discover a tomb of the ancients, but not actually place a tomb sticker until the next turn (after their first action!), when they open the box. Similarly, it might not place Patmos/Ker when the explore action was complete (as the chart tells you to!) but potentially on a future turn or game.

A good point ... but then again, the alternatives don't address that, either. If you simply lose out on having done the thing, then you still won't have performed the unlock, and in the example I gave, you wouldn't have a choice.

Really, the cleanest way to deal with this would be to remove the claim limit, and allow players to claim multiple objectives. But that could lead to even larger glory swings than currently exist, which doesn't seem like a Good Thing(tm) to me.

A less clean, but possibly workable option would be -- for immediate unlock milestones that need to be deferred only -- to resolve the unlock portion of the milestone, but leave the milestone unclaimed otherwise. The unlocking player wouldn't gain the glory or other benefits (yet). Then when that or another player was able to claim the milestone legally, they would follow the remaining steps of the milestone entry.

That would prevent any game mechanic oddities while preventing multiple milestone claims.
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j n
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If you split the awards and end up awarding a giant chunk of glory at the start of the next game, you may be handing them two game wins in a row, which seems like a bigger swing.

If you don't allow them to split the awards, the massive glory swing can be compensated a bit either by increasing the starting bonuses for other players (if claimer shoots ahead) or at least decreasing their own (if they were already behind).

But definitely you want to be performing the unlock portion of those milestones at the appropriate times regardless IMO.

(added) Really the best way to deal with this is to have most milestones claimed at the end of the turn (after both actions, limit 1 per turn), but mark the critical milestones "IMMEDIATE" and have them always end the turn.

(It even looks like they got close in development, because I seem to recall the critical ones do end your turn when you claim them).
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Charles Waterman
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lactamaeon wrote:

From a purely game design perspective, any of these cases feel super awkward to me compared to just letting the player claim an extra milestone if it comes up.


I see what you mean, but I think a simpler solution would be to require that claiming a milestone **ended** a player's turn. Claiming two milestones on one turn seems a bit too (excuse me) Munchkinish to me.
 
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