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Subject: "I like QMG, but wouldn't it be great if..." rss

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Jeff Warrender
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Despite the title, this is not a thread aimed at criticizing QMG!

I'm designing a QMG-esque game, with Ian's knowledge, blessing, and involvement. I think it's early to say too much about the project at this point, but it's my/our hope that fans of QMG will enjoy it, and it has some twists on the QMG "formula" that may be interesting.

I'm interested to learn whether there any aspects of QMG that people wish worked a bit differently -- I've read many of the reviews and comments but am interested to hear what fans of the game think, in particular. The goal isn't to "fix" QMG, of course. But if there are aspects of the game that could be revised or modified, we may be able to take some of these into account in this new design. Not so much "[this card] is a bit weak" but more stuff like, e.g., "it's a bummer if your good cards are stuck at the bottom of the deck", etc. Of course, "it works perfectly as is!" is a completely valid comment as well.

I appreciate any observations and comments from the forum.
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Barry Miller
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I'm still waffling over the necessity of, or the benefit of incorporating the three-card discard during setup. It definitely creates some early anguish for each player before the game even begins, which is actually kind of fun. But am wondering for what real purpose? Plus it's hard for newbies, as they have no clue what to discard.

So, to answer your question, the three-card discard during setup might be a good candidate for re-evaluation. I'm good with everything else.

And Oh, one more after thought... Some players I've played with (and myself sometimes) are frustrated (though in a good way, so take this FWIW) that putting a "Response" card on the table eats up an entire turn. Again, FWIW.



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Witch Lord
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To be honest, one thing that comes to my mind is the role of Air Forces.

Except for a few bolster cards, the only thing planes do is basically act as shields for ground Armies.

I suppose this is because they were added on at a later stage, and giving them a larger role would have messed too much with the way the game works.

But if you're designing a new game from scratch, maybe you could make them a more versatile piece, with intrinsic offensive/reconnaissance/logistical capabilities?
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Jeff Warrender
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Witch Lord wrote:
To be honest, one thing that comes to my mind is the role of Air Forces.

Except for a few bolster cards, the only thing planes do is basically work as shields.

I suppose this is because they were added on at a later stage, and giving them a more aggressive role would have messed too much with the way the game works.

But if you're designing a new game from scratch, maybe you could make them a more versatile piece, with intrinsic offensive/reconnaissance/logistical capabilities?


Thanks for this. I can at least say that the new game's setting is quite different than QMG's, and so unfortunately air units would be anachronistic. However, it's possible we'll have some cards/pieces that are functionally equivalent to the role that air units play in QMG, and so I'll certainly take this thought into account.
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Michael Drog
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QMG with in game deckbuilding..somehow...sign me up!. I'm all over games like this including Hands in the Sea and upcoming Time of Crises.
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Peter Strait
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bgm1961 wrote:

I'm still waffling over the necessity of, or the benefit of incorporating the three-card discard during setup. It definitely creates some early anguish for each player before the game even begins, which is actually kind of fun. But am wondering for what real purpose? Plus it's hard for newbies, as they have no clue what to discard.

So, to answer your question, the three-card discard during setup might be a good candidate for re-evaluation. I'm good with everything else.

And Oh, one more after thought... Some players I've played with (and myself sometimes) are frustrated (though in a good way, so take this FWIW) that putting a "Response" card on the table eats up an entire turn. Again, FWIW.


My "fix" would be to allow players the option of returning three cards to either the top or bottom of their deck (in the order of their choosing), rather than discarding.

Also, later QG games do allow one face-up "Action" and one face-down "Response" per turn, if I recall correctly.
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ErsatzDragon wrote:
My "fix" would be to allow players the option of returning three cards to either the top or bottom of their deck (in the order of their choosing), rather than discarding.

Also, later QG games do allow one face-up "Action" and one face-down "Response" per turn, if I recall correctly.


You should take a look at the new QMG:1914 instalment. It does exactly that. You draw 10 cards and return 3 to the bottom of your draw deck. Every card can be either played during the play step, or "prepared" like a response during the prepare step, with different effects.

Most people seem to agree that 1914 has got the best mechanics out of all QMG games to date.
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mdrog2 wrote:
QMG with in game deckbuilding..somehow...sign me up!. I'm all over games like this including Hands in the Sea and upcoming Time of Crises.


Check out the second expansion to QMG, "Alternate Histories".

It adds a constructed deck playing mode.
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Jeff Warrender
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mdrog2 wrote:
QMG with in game deckbuilding..somehow...sign me up!. I'm all over games like this including Hands in the Sea and upcoming Time of Crises.


That's an interesting thought, although it would really scramble the QMG "formula" to have cards return to your hand after playing (i.e. when your discard pile is shuffled).

One thought I had was to separate your cards into three piles, say "Military", "Economic", and "Diplomatic/Scoring", and when you draw cards you pick which you draw from. That would give a little more control. But it's not quite the same thing as in-game deck construction.

On the other hand, I can sort of see how deck construction might work with the theme of this new game. Again, without giving too much away, this game introduces a very, very little bit of an economy that you need to use to support your army, so you could see that functionality being incorporated into the deck -- instead of status cards providing your economy, the cards you draw each turn would provide your economy, and your military options, and your diplomatic options.... Hmm....
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Michael Drog
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Maybe the amount of "stars" you control is your purchasing power, however you would have to make some sort of penalty otherwise a runaway snowball effect of power would happen.

Maybe you get more purchasing power the number of stars you control but your hand size shrinks inversely plus deck discards.. I don't know.

Whatever it is, I think the brilliance of QMG is the simplicity of rules/card play leading to huge amount of strategic options.

I mean all you really do on your turn is "play one card" and the game is still brilliant. So definitely keeping it elegant stays true to what QMG is.
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Andrew B
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jwarrend wrote:
mdrog2 wrote:
QMG with in game deckbuilding..somehow...sign me up!. I'm all over games like this including Hands in the Sea and upcoming Time of Crises.


That's an interesting thought, although it would really scramble the QMG "formula" to have cards return to your hand after playing (i.e. when your discard pile is shuffled).

One thought I had was to separate your cards into three piles, say "Military", "Economic", and "Diplomatic/Scoring", and when you draw cards you pick which you draw from. That would give a little more control. But it's not quite the same thing as in-game deck construction.

On the other hand, I can sort of see how deck construction might work with the theme of this new game. Again, without giving too much away, this game introduces a very, very little bit of an economy that you need to use to support your army, so you could see that functionality being incorporated into the deck -- instead of status cards providing your economy, the cards you draw each turn would provide your economy, and your military options, and your diplomatic options.... Hmm....


I've been thinking about making a deckbuilding wargame as well, but I think it would drift very far away from the QMG roots. Still, a really cool idea I'd say.

I'd like to see more espionage/intelligence/covert ops in a QMG game. Having a hand, a deck, and responses on the table gives a lot of options for trying to figure out what the other players are up to.

Having cards that increase the coordination within a team would be awesome too.
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Alec Usticke
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jwarrend wrote:
One thought I had was to separate your cards into three piles, say "Military", "Economic", and "Diplomatic/Scoring", and when you draw cards you pick which you draw from. That would give a little more control.

One of the most interesting aspects of QMG is that each game can be so different depending on the composition of the deck. Of course there are many repeating themes, but each game can be so different based on what cards you're getting. I think the best players are those who put together the optimal strategy based on their draws (instead of just repeating what worked in prior games despite having different cards). Yes, that means sometimes you'll get walloped due to bad luck, but I think you'll hear experienced players complain about "bad luck" much less than those who are new to the game.
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Mark Turner
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Use QMG 1914 as your template. It takes a clever design and improves
it.

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Alec Usticke
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To add to my earlier comment, three decks per player would also be onerous when playing 1-on-1. It's a pain to juggle 2-3 decks and increasing that to 6-9 decks seems a bit much.
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Jeff Warrender
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austicke wrote:

One of the most interesting aspects of QMG is that each game can be so different depending on the composition of the deck. Of course there are many repeating themes, but each game can be so different based on what cards you're getting. I think the best players are those who put together the optimal strategy based on their draws (instead of just repeating what worked in prior games despite having different cards). Yes, that means sometimes you'll get walloped due to bad luck, but I think you'll hear experienced players complain about "bad luck" much less than those who are new to the game.


That's an interesting point, and definitely part of why I started the thread. One reads among the negative reviews and negative comments that the possibility of having your key cards spend the game buried at the bottom of the deck can be frustrating, but I'm most interested to hear what fans and proponents of the game think about things like this.

Quote:
To add to my earlier comment, three decks per player would also be onerous when playing 1-on-1. It's a pain to juggle 2-3 decks and increasing that to 6-9 decks seems a bit much.


Well...there's a reasonably good chance the "play multiple factions with less than the full player count" thing won't be part of this project. But it's a good thing to be mindful of nonetheless, thanks.
 
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Jeff Warrender
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MrMT wrote:
Use QMG 1914 as your template. It takes a clever design and improves it.


I had a chance to playtest a late-stage proto with Ian and two other designers at a design gathering this Spring. It was unsurprising that he as the central powers soundly trounced our triple entente! I like some of what 1914 does but I think this new project will tweak the QMG formula in a few different ways than does 1914.
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Barry Miller
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jwarrend wrote:
One reads among the negative reviews and negative comments that the possibility of having your key cards spend the game buried at the bottom of the deck can be frustrating, but I'm most interested to hear what fans and proponents of the game think about things like this.

You asked, so... all those sort of negative comments are rubbish and a cop out. You know, "back in the day", there used to be an adage that "You play with the cards you're dealt".

And that adage held true in all aspects of life. But now-a-days, when do you ever hear that, anymore? It seems that a lot people today like to whine and complain that the cards they were dealt aren't fair, or aren't the same as the next guy. Boo hoo. Everyone plays with a differently shuffled deck of cards from one game to another.

The true measure of a good player is what he/she does with the cards that are dealt! A good player will take a crappy shuffle and turn it into a solid game. And a not-so-good player - yet one who doesn't give up - will fight and scratch and claw so to challenge himself to see what he can make out his cards. Then after he loses, he'll ask the better player for advice. And will be a better player for the next game.

The lesser players will simply whine that their shuffle wasn't fair and that their better cards are on the bottom. Then they'll come to BGG and post threads about how the game is broken. (As you can tell, I'm not talking only about QMG anymore)!

Sorry for the vent. But I've been a member of BGG for a while and I've seen the cries about "unbalanced" and "broken" games only getting worse, across the board.
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Peter Strait
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Witch Lord wrote:
ErsatzDragon wrote:
My "fix" would be to allow players the option of returning three cards to either the top or bottom of their deck (in the order of their choosing), rather than discarding.

Also, later QG games do allow one face-up "Action" and one face-down "Response" per turn, if I recall correctly.


You should take a look at the new QMG:1914 instalment. It does exactly that. You draw 10 cards and return 3 to the bottom of your draw deck. Every card can be either played during the play step, or "prepared" like a response during the prepare step, with different effects.

Most people seem to agree that 1914 has got the best mechanics out of all QMG games to date.


Funny, I own 1914 and just haven't cracked it open yet. Great Minds I suppose?
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jwarrend wrote:
That's an interesting point, and definitely part of why I started the thread. One reads among the negative reviews and negative comments that the possibility of having your key cards spend the game buried at the bottom of the deck can be frustrating, but I'm most interested to hear what fans and proponents of the game think about things like this.


QMG: Victory or Death has an optional, advanced rule that allows you to "reallocate resources" (in that game it's called "emergency provisions", but it's effectively the same thing) for any prepare card in your whole deck.

I'm a big fan of providing different options that suit different groups of people. I've got some friends who would do very poorly with said VoD advanced emergency provisions rule (as they already tend to analysis paralysis anyway), while it might be just the right thing for those players who simply cannot live without a certain card. If you want to try and accommodate for as many types of player as possible, you could incorporate several different optional formats:

* Ironman mode / "The good old days": You get an initial hand of 7 cards, you play it, shut up. Oh, and no reallocate resources, either.

* Tin man mode: Draw 10 cards, discard 3 (or return them to the bottom of your draw deck). Still no reallocate resources. This was the original QMG.

* Default: Draw 10 cards, return 3 to the bottom of your draw deck. Reallocate resources works only for base cards.

* "Throw me a lifeline" mode: Draw 10 cards, return 3 to the bottom of your draw deck. You may reallocate resources for any one of your cards.

* Full strategic / "History at your fingertips" mode: Your hand is your draw deck - you can access all your cards at all times.


And finally, you can also have mulligans (either a limited number for free, or an unlimited number that cost a card each).

In short, let every player decide for themselves what they will find the most fun.



ErsatzDragon wrote:
Funny, I own 1914 and just haven't cracked it open yet. Great Minds I suppose?


Unless you're planning on holding on to a sealed copy that you can sell in 10 years for $1000 or something... well, what are you waiting for? I promise you, you'll have the time of your life with it
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Marc Nelson Jr.
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Quote:
"I like QMG, but wouldn't it be great if..."


...it came with beer.
...my wife would play it.
...and it made my hair grow back.
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Marc Nelson Jr.
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But seriously...

Not to turn QMG into Axis and Allies, but some diversity in playing pieces might be neat, as opposed to generic armies and navies.

Or how about a non-war setting... Could the QMG system be adapted to an election-themed game? An economic game? Does there necessarily have to be a map?

One deck building mechanic I enjoy is picking one of three cards, as used in Campaign Manager 2008 or Arena mode in Hearthstone. That could be a fun way to generate your opening hand or even your entire deck.

Good luck, and keep us posted!
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Alec Usticke
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Witch Lord wrote:
QMG: Victory or Death has an optional, advanced rule that allows you to "reallocate resources" (in that game it's called "emergency provisions", but it's effectively the same thing) for any one card in your whole deck.

FYI, advanced emergency provision only allows you to retrieve a Prepare card, not any card.
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austicke wrote:
Witch Lord wrote:
QMG: Victory or Death has an optional, advanced rule that allows you to "reallocate resources" (in that game it's called "emergency provisions", but it's effectively the same thing) for any one card in your whole deck.

FYI, advanced emergency provision only allows you to retrieve a Prepare card, not any card.


I stand corrected, thank you.
 
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I played this the other week for the first time (I knew nothing about the game). Although I liked it (we played a 6 player game) I think one issue is the board itself. I was playing as Japan, and attacking the "Western United States" from the "North Pacific". I will be honest, I couldn't see the board that well, and the player who was USA had played the game before. We didn't realise until the game was over, when a more experienced player came along for a quick look, that you cannot directly attack from that location. There is a small line next to the text to show that the location isn't next to it.

If you look at this image of the board, you'll see what I mean:


Once you know it is there, it makes sense, but I would say if you are designing a game like this, make sure the boundary definitions/lines are clear.
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Jim F
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Who knew trench warfare could be such fun?
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Having played this with a lot of first timers, you aren't alone.
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