Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
9 Posts

Innovation» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Analysis of an Isotropic log/Ages 9-10 strategy rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Enter prisey
United States
New York
flag msg tools
The game in question: http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201701/19/game-20170...

Besides my (enterprisey) failure to play Enterprise (ironic, that) to remove Astronomy from fweep's board, what other actions could I have taken to win this game? I'm stuck, and would really like to improve my endgame strategy (both at 5 achievements each, and in ages 9 and 10).

In general, what are some tips for playing in ages 9 and 10? I don't reach them enough in casual or Isotropic games to have developed a good feel for them, and the card list doesn't help much.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Enterprisey wrote:
Besides my (enterprisey) failure to play Enterprise (ironic, that) to remove Astronomy from fweep's board, what other actions could I have taken to win this game?

Just a point of clarification: Enterprise would not have worked against Astronomy; Enterprise works only against non-purple cards.

Quote:
I'm stuck, and would really like to improve my endgame strategy (both at 5 achievements each, and in ages 9 and 10).

In general, what are some tips for playing in ages 9 and 10? I don't reach them enough in casual or Isotropic games to have developed a good feel for them, and the card list doesn't help much.

I don't feel that I'm qualified to answer these questions terribly well. I mostly play Innovation tactically, and the tactically best play in any game varies by game state.

But I'll follow along to see what advice you might get.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Draper
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
I'm not good enough at reconstructing the game state by the logs to give you specific advice in this game, but I can give you some more general advice which can be applied to the late game.

The key to winning in Innovation is to determine player roles and how to change them. You're either the "scorer" or the "scientist". The player with the stronger scoring engine (the "scorer") is typically better-served running their engine and achieving in an attempt to win before their opponent finds an answer. The other player ("the scientist") should tech up in search of either a better engine or a card that stops their opponent's engine. This creates a leapfrogging effect, where the players' positions flip flop over the course of the game. One turn, you're the scorer and your opponent is the scientist, the next your opponent is the scorer and you are the scientist.

In the late game, the scorer has an additional winning route other than claiming the sixth achievement - end the game by drawing a level 11 card and win on points. The scientist also has other winning routes, but they are tied to specific card endgame conditions (Bioengineering, A.I., Collaboration, and Empiricism).

If you identify which role you are, you can either angle for that role's victory condition(s) or attempt to change roles.
10 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Surely there are situations where both players should be "scientists"?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Draper
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
Surely there are situations where both players should be "scientists"?


Sure, like when no one has a scoring engine, for example. The "scorer" vs. "scientist" metaphor is an oversimplification for illustration purposes. The real point is that you need to understand the game state in relation to how the game will end, i.e. strategically, and not just play tactically.
8 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
EXTRA AVOCADO! Sonderegger
United States
Folsom
CA
flag msg tools
designer
Shall I compare thee to a chevrolet?
badge
...the headlamps of your eyes will make them dream.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BennyD wrote:
I'm not good enough at reconstructing the game state by the logs to give you specific advice in this game, but I can give you some more general advice which can be applied to the late game.

The key to winning in Innovation is to determine player roles and how to change them. You're either the "scorer" or the "scientist". The player with the stronger scoring engine (the "scorer") is typically better-served running their engine and achieving in an attempt to win before their opponent finds and answer. The other player ("the scientist") should tech up in search of either a better engine or a card that stops their opponent's engine. This creates a leapfrogging effect, where the players' positions flip flop over the course of the game. One turn, you're the scorer and your opponent is the scientist, the next your opponent is the scorer and you are the scientist.

In the late game, the scorer has an additional winning route other than claiming the sixth achievement - end the game by drawing a level 11 card and win on points. The scientist also has other winning routes, but they are tied to specific card endgame conditions (Bioengineering, A.I., Collaboration, and Empiricism).

If you identify which role you are, you can either angle for that role's victory condition(s) or attempt to change roles.


Gosh. Thanks for codifying a feeling I've always had about this game. That's exactly the general feeling sometimes!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robb Effinger
United States
Bothell
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Enterprisey wrote:

Besides my (enterprisey) failure to play Enterprise (ironic, that) to remove Astronomy from fweep's board, what other actions could I have taken to win this game?


I'll record my thoughts here, as I go through the game:

Pregame: I definitely start Mysticism over Masonry. Masonry is a trap - it encourages you to take 4 bad actions (draw) so that you can get one achievement (Monument).. compare this with scoring 5 times and getting the 1-achievement.. both of these get you an achievement, one of them gets you half way to the next achievement.

Turn 5: You melded Fermenting. Why? It seems like you don't have the leaf advantage (If you did, why not run Fermenting on T6), and the other relevant symbol seems to be Castles, since fweep is Metalworking, and Fermenting covers two of these from Masonry. Seems to be a wasted action.

T6: You meld Calendar?? Ah, because you didn't have a blue card in play, and you wanted one to exist in case mysticism found a blue? Still, feels like if that 20% chance hits, and is a card you want in play (probably not obviously true, with the blue 3s being Alchemy and Translation), you can meld the blue card after.

T12: Compass feels weird. You just did a bunch of work to get to Age 6... why are you playing around with compass now? This is doubly-weird, as activating it covered your 6. Ahh... maybe you're trying to get the leaf advantage, so that you can use vaccination? In which case, play compass before you play Vaccination (although you may have to worry about your opponent holding Machinery?.. in which case, don't play compass!)

T13, 14: On the last three turns you've spend half your actions melding cards! It's not great to spend time melding cards and using them only once

T15: Okay, Pirate code gets run twice.. and starts dealing with the score problem... although it may be too slow?

T23: Misclick on Agriculture?

T24: You should probably consider running Enterprise here to stop the astronomy win. It also looks like you win if you just don't misclick on Agriculture the turn before - you achieve the 8 with your next action, so if you don't run Agriculture, you have that action available.

I also have to wonder if you can just win without achieving the 8, by running Industrialization a couple of times. It appears that you have the score advantage, and if you're still sharing industrialization (as you were on T20), you should churn through the remaining ~18 cards in around 2-3 actions. And with Agriculture as one of your top cards, might just need to run it once, if that puts a 10 in your hand from sharing.




Quote:

In general, what are some tips for playing in ages 9 and 10? I don't reach them enough in casual or Isotropic games to have developed a good feel for them, and the card list doesn't help much.


Endgame is much like the rest of it, just with less room for error. Figure out who is closer to winning, you or your opponent. If it's you - push towards it. If it's your opponent, try to stop them... preferably in a way that makes you the player closer to winning. Keep in mind the various ways of the game ending - achievements, special achievements, drawing the 11, and, if those aren't concerns, the various "win" cards.



9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enter prisey
United States
New York
flag msg tools
Robb and everyone else, thanks for the advice! Looking forward to getting better at this game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Private Name
msg tools
I don't recall much about that game other than being distracted, but definitely ask me for analyses after games if you are curious, or deeper strategy details for any given setting. I'm currently ranked #1 and possibly the current isotropic best at all modes.

I agree with your meld of Masonry as first card. However, after seeing fweep meld two castles on turn 2, in your shoes I would Masonry my two castle cards and mysticism. Drawing for more castles is a bad deal with so many taken. That said, you managed to draw two castles anyway, so well done!

On turn 7 I'm obviously not looking at the game. I meld a castle and make a null move. You immediately engineering and kill me on turn 8, good. You should be winning now, but...

Turn 9 and 10 are questionable. On turn 9, you can clothing twice to score 16 instead of 8. I cannot achieve 3 in reply, since I do not have a 3 up and am only at score 11. I can get to score 15, or meld a higher age, but I cannot do both and still achieve 3. Generally, when you can exploit Clothing for massive score, you continue to do so until your opponent stops you.

After turn 8, you pretty much should be achieving at least 3, 4, and 5, then trying to use the pressure to finish up and win. Instead I ended up with 1,2,4,5,6 and just had to lean on and pressure you on potential sixth achieves until you fell over.
--------

There are various types of situations around age 9 and 10 in base. One is tech vs score/achieve, in which the player at 9 and 10 is ages ahead but has to close it out before his opponent achieves for the win. You get your computers or genetics or ecology or quantum theory or math+9, get a 10, and hope it allows you to end the game in your favor before time runs out. Or you get your satellites and use it to play rocketry or media and remove your opponent's score cards before he can achieve with them. Or you get Fission and you are so utterly desperate you go for the 1/5 to reset the game despite you having less than 50% of winning even if you nuke the world.

Another is the situations where both players are at high tech and both are at five achieves. Here, the goal is to pressure your opponent with win conditions, e.g. create opportunities to win by score-based achieve, by empire, by wonder, by monument, by universe, by ending the game by drawing an 11 at higher score, by empiricm, by a 10 effect. Your opponent should be trying to do the same to you. In essence, you create situations where your opponent MUST play a defensive move or lose. Then, with the time he spends playing the defensive move, you create another threat. Repeat until he can no longer counter a threat, or you have to defend.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.