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Subject: [Brainstorm]Nerfing Vengeance format rss

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Fede Miguez
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I haven't played Vengeance/Villains format in a while for two reasons mostly: added downtime/bookkeeping and increased difficulty (which makes several slow heroes unfeasible for the format).

So a rather simple nerf I was thinking to address this was:
On the first round, the first Villain does not play a card, but resolve the text in it's Character Card.
On the second round, the second Villain does not play a card, but resolve the text in it's Character Card (but the first does).
On the third round, the third Villain... and so on.

This reduces the card play total by the Villains while making their turns a bit faster. Basically all Villains have a setup that their first turn they will do something even if they don't play a card.
I think this would allow to play the format in tougher environment for the Heroes and/or with slower teams.

Any ideas why this would not work?
 
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Jim Adams
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I don't see why it wouldn't. It's basically giving you a "free-ish" turn to mount up.

One way we've resolved this challenge (family game, no one wants to lose but still want a challenge) is by playing one less villain. So three players, 2 Vengeance villains. Sandwich their turns between the heroes. With the 3 difficulty villains, it's still pretty challenging. Additionally it gives each player a second deck to be responsible for, with two players controlling their heroes + a villain and the final the environment deck itself.
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P.D. Magnus
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PePe QuiCoSE wrote:
I haven't played Vengeance/Villains format in a while for two reasons mostly: added downtime/bookkeeping and increased difficulty (which makes several slow heroes unfeasible for the format).


I share your feelings about the extra bookkeeping, but we've never found the Vengeance-style villains to be terribly hard.
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Geoff B.
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Do you have Villains of the Multiverse?

Mixing them into the games helps, as none of them play all the other villain deck cards, and are designed to have much less bookkeeping.

The Vengeance format works much better for lower (H) games, and I would recommend against playing with (H)=5.

When we do have a 5 hero group we often play a villain and a Vengeance deck as a second villain, esp. villains that don't scale to (H) well.

The Vengeance 5 vs 5 heroes is one of the most daunting games to run, because of all the card effects and the crazy turns the villains throw down.
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P.D. Magnus
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Phantaskippy wrote:

When we do have a 5 hero group we often play a villain and a Vengeance deck as a second villain, esp. villains that don't scale to (H) well.


This also works well with 4 heroes and weaker villains (such as Baron Blade or Ambuscade).
 
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Fede Miguez
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I think removing 1 Villain would be too much, too few HP, games would snowball too fast once you incap one of the enemies, even with the harder ones. Good to know that doesn't break.

@Magnus: Villains is not THAT bad, but Vengeance was brutal, specially against the Heroes it packed.

Edit: missed the last 2 replies. Yes I have Villains and while using some of the weaker Villains helps you still need to carry Heroes strong against the format. Using heroes with setup (AZ, Bunker, Argent) or who are not great at multi target damage will end result in a loss on average scenarios. Plus, the fun Villains (Sgt. Steel, Plague Rat) are not on the weaker side.
 
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Michael Hunter
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Your change makes sense, would play simply, and definitely gives the heroes some breathing room. Clean, I like it!

What always bugged me about Vengeance is that it was very heavily skewed towards AoE. As you were always facing down 4 targets (often quiet a few more, many of them are quite target happy) and they are tough fights, the only way to really compete is to spam AoE. I distinctly remember one game where Haka had Rampage two turns running and did something like 70 damage amongst all the targets out (also 20ish to us, in fairness). I feel like it kind of hurts diversity, heroes who don't have reliable/strong AoE (Chrono Ranger in particular is a sad panda) sometimes don't really get a look in. Also, a whole bunch of cards become quite suboptimal and never see play, while even kinda junky AoE leaps up and becomes the only thing you ever play.

We fiddled with some ways to nerf AoE (one was you could only hit targets in one play area with a single card/effect), but the problem was Vengeance style is so hard anyway, now that we couldn't abuse AoE, we just got annihilated, so we gave up trying to find a solution.
 
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Take Walker
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When I first started playing Vengeance format, I thought it was way, way harder, too. And after playing a lot of games, I'm starting to realize that it doesn't have to be hard, but that's only if you pick your team well. (Or you play against Biomancer, Bugbear or Citizens Hammer & Anvil. c.c) As Adelphophage said, favor AoE, and eschew heroes with lengthy setup, unless you can get a variant, like F6 Absolute Zero or Xtreme Argent Adept, who's got a damage-dealing power. Random teams, in my experience, fare far worse against Vengeance and Villains villains than they would against single villains, and all the AoE and destruction and discarding that gets fielded against the heroes just makes certain heroes not viable. Whether or not that makes it less fun is up to the player.

Of course, if you want to win, just play in the Final Wasteland, it always works for me. :V
 
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Matt Onyx
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I've only played a few matches (5, I think?), but i've never found it to be too hard.
Although I will say that you absolutely need ongoing removal if you want to stand a chance. Doesn't matter what combination of villains you use, or how many you face. AoE is good for the smaller targets (and especially Proletariat), but a lot of the villains have healing/reduction. So in reality you can use a lot of single-target heroes.
The biggest problem is, well, people think you need to fight everyone at once. What you should do is decide who your biggest threat is (that can be taken down easily) and focus on them. Take out the smaller targets, especially nemeses, but most of your damage should go to a single major villain. Once they're incapped, their effect will never be as strong as them playing/attacking, so you functionally get a breather space between two heroes. If you can keep your HP up, at that point the game becomes a lot easier.
This is, of course, all based on personal experience. So take it with a grain of salt. But the biggest piece of advice I have is focus, focus, focus.
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Fede Miguez
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mattonyx wrote:
Although I will say that you absolutely need ongoing removal if you want to stand a chance.
That applies to Vengeance but not really to Villains. Only some of them have Ongoings and a lot destroy themselves given X condition is met.
 
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Michael Hunter
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After some tentative playtesting, we've had a bit of luck with a combination of...

1: Anything that hits "all" targets can only hit targets in a single villain play area. When Tempest uses Squall, you still hit all environments, but you have to pick one villain area to be pummeled. Anything that hits a specific number of targets (Assault Rifle, Inferno, so on) can hit targets in multiple villain play areas.
This reins in the AoE being super strong, but as noted above AoE being super strong was the only way to win these otherwise rather unbalanced fights, so...

2: Fight one less villain.
We've only done it on H=4, but it felt about right difficulty wise, maybe a tiny shade on the easier side but against Blade+Fright Train+Friction it was plenty tough still (n=3 games). I thought it would break the flow, but we did it with the first hero then the first villain, so the flow is hero-villain-hero-villain-hero-villain-hero-environment then loop, with the environment being usually some kinda bad thing it feels about right.

Not a lot of testing done here, but thought it might be interesting to others.
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Greg Von Chicken Pants
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The easiest modification is to change the turn order. Have the first hero go before the first villain. And continue that pattern.

The vegence five on advanced are tough, but normal mode isn't too bad. The heroes should stand some chance of losing or there's no tension.
 
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