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Subject: Ambiguous tile (see image) rss

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Patrick Tiberius O'Flynn
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The last game I played sparked a bit of a debate. Is the road on the left hand river tile terminated by a village? It seems somewhat unclear but it certainly looks like a village. If it is a terminator, would the connecting road on the right hand tile only score 1 point if there was a meeple on it?

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Jeff Mosbaugh
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If I remember correctly it is the bridge that ends the road... So that road through the village on the left ending on the right would be 2 points.
 
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Jacob Casper
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Kilteddispatcher wrote:

If I remember correctly it is the bridge that ends the road... So that road through the village on the left ending on the right would be 2 points.


That's also what I thought when I looked at it
 
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Pasi Ojala
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I don't understand the confusion. As far as I know, only unfinished roads can give you 1 point. All finished roads are always made up of at least two tiles.

(You are counting the number of tiles, not the number of road segments.)
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Samuel Arroyo Rodriguez
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There's no ambiguous... the road dosen't ends and continues with the bridge... I don't understand which is the problem....
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Michal Sasinski
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I'm not sure in which versions of rules I've read it, but It's common understanding that crossroad finish road. There is no crossroad on the left tile, so road does not end.

Still I agree, that graphical representation on those tiles may be confusing.
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A crossroad with a village in it does end a road; a crossroad without a village does not.
A bridge does NOT end a road.
A simple T-junction does NOT end a road; the T-junction with a village (as shown) DOES end a road.

Edit: excuse my stupidity. I was thinking of the "roundabout" tile on Abbey and Mayor. AFAICT all T-junctions have villages or clumps of trees which indeed DO end the segments. My bad.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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enoon wrote:
A simple T-junction does NOT end a road

Really? It ends 3 separate roads.

There is no difference between a T-crossing with and without a village. The village is just graphical detail.
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a1bert wrote:
enoon wrote:
A simple T-junction does NOT end a road

Really? It ends 3 separate roads.
It certainly does not.

Edit: excuse my stupidity. I was thinking of the "roundabout" tile on Abbey and Mayor. AFAICT all T-junctions have villages or clumps of trees which indeed DO end the segments. My bad.
 
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All questions are answered here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action...;sa=view;down=292

in the Standard Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.4

or here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/87531/carcassonne-standar...
 
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Désirée Greverud
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enoon wrote:
a1bert wrote:
enoon wrote:
A simple T-junction does NOT end a road

Really? It ends 3 separate roads.
It certainly does not.

it does.
from the annotated Carcassonne rules: (emphasis mine)
13Question: We would like to draw your attention to an ambiguity. You speak of crossings- in the game there are crossings and junctions.
Answer: That's right! But since all crossings have the same effect - namely, to bring a road to an end - it was decided to sacrifice the distinction between crossings and junctions (or T-crossings, or T-roads...?) in order to not unnecessarily complicate matters.

14Question: How are the road segments between T-junctions scored? Are the horizontal segments (on top of the T) also ends, or do these count as straight roads that have to be completed elsewhere?
Answer: Every crossing (or junction) ends a road, irrespective of which direction they reach the junction from. The thieves cannot enter the small villages on the junctions either. In the example shown, every thief is on its own road
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DragonsDream wrote:
enoon wrote:
a1bert wrote:
enoon wrote:
A simple T-junction does NOT end a road

Really? It ends 3 separate roads.
It certainly does not.

it does.
from the annotated Carcassonne rules: (emphasis mine)
13Question: We would like to draw your attention to an ambiguity. You speak of crossings- in the game there are crossings and junctions.
Answer: That's right! But since all crossings have the same effect - namely, to bring a road to an end - it was decided to sacrifice the distinction between crossings and junctions (or T-crossings, or T-roads...?) in order to not unnecessarily complicate matters.

14Question: How are the road segments between T-junctions scored? Are the horizontal segments (on top of the T) also ends, or do these count as straight roads that have to be completed elsewhere?
Answer: Every crossing (or junction) ends a road, irrespective of which direction they reach the junction from. The thieves cannot enter the small villages on the junctions either. In the example shown, every thief is on its own road
Harrumph! I certainly prefer the "unnecessary complication" of T-junctions extending roads not ending them: it makes it harder to complete roads. We've always played that way - and have thus never thought to check for a contrary ruling in the SCAR - and will probably continue to do so, but it seems it's been officially ruled otherwise.

My world crumbles as it dumbs down ....


Edit: excuse my stupidity. I was thinking of the "roundabout" tile on Abbey and Mayor. AFAICT all T-junctions have villages or clumps of trees which indeed DO end the segments. My bad.
 
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Michal Sasinski
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enoon wrote:
A crossroad with a village in it does end a road; a crossroad without a village does not.
A bridge does NOT end a road.
A simple T-junction does NOT end a road; the T-junction with a village (as shown) DOES end a road.


This is something new.
 
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Majfrost wrote:
enoon wrote:
A crossroad with a village in it does end a road; a crossroad without a village does not.
A bridge does NOT end a road.
A simple T-junction does NOT end a road; the T-junction with a village (as shown) DOES end a road.


This is something new.
Apart from the bridge, it seems I am "wrong". Well, I am wrong according to the SCAR, but it seems to make the scoring of roads too easy if T-junctions (without any obvious stop) end a road, so it's unlikely we'll change.

Edit: excuse my stupidity. I was thinking of the "roundabout" tile on Abbey and Mayor. AFAICT all T-junctions have villages or clumps of trees which indeed DO end the segments. My bad.
 
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Michal Sasinski
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enoon wrote:
Majfrost wrote:
enoon wrote:
A crossroad with a village in it does end a road; a crossroad without a village does not.
A bridge does NOT end a road.
A simple T-junction does NOT end a road; the T-junction with a village (as shown) DOES end a road.


This is something new.
Apart from the bridge, it seems I am "wrong". Well, I am wrong according to the SCAR, but it seems to make the scoring of roads too easy if T-junctions (without any obvious stop) end a road, so it's unlikely we'll change.

Edit: excuse my stupidity. I was thinking of the "roundabout" tile on Abbey and Mayor. AFAICT all T-junctions have villages or clumps of trees which indeed DO end the segments. My bad.


I played a hundreds of sessions of Carcassonne with the rule that junctions ends a road. Also on android, jclosterzone and board game arene, where machine is taking care of the rules. So I was surprised with you statements. No hard feelings, I just thought that new version of Carcassonne implemented some new rules, where village is a mark of road ending. So again, all blame on designer for making ambiguous graphical representation.
 
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Majfrost wrote:
So again, all blame on designer for making ambiguous graphical representation.
Well, I have to take some blame for posting incorrect answers before I've had my 2nd cup of coffee ....
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Patrick Tiberius O'Flynn
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Thanks for the info lads. To be clear then, the offending tile is a regular continuous single road that crosses a river over of bridge and runs through a village, neither the bridge or village are road terminals. The village in the tile is then an exception to the regular rules for scoring roads, in fact it should not be seen as a village but as flavour art that is similar to a village.

Excerpt from page 3 of the rules (Version with the River and Abbot)

Quote:
1. Scoring a road

The end of a road is closed when it meets a village, a city, a
monastery, or it loops onto itself by meeting the other end.


The long and short of it is the tile could be considered a badly designed tile that has the potential to confuse.
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Delith Malistar
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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So to answer the OP's question, the tile on the left is just a straight road piece with some fancy graphics, correct? See the terrible ASCII map below for what I assume is the consensus.

--T-
 
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Désirée Greverud
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PetyuskaDoom wrote:
Thanks for the info lads. To be clear then, the offending tile is a regular continuous single road that crosses a river over of bridge and runs through a village, neither the bridge or village are road terminals. The village in the tile is then an exception to the regular rules for scoring roads, in fact it should not be seen as a village but as flavour art that is similar to a village.

Excerpt from page 3 of the rules (Version with the River and Abbot)

Quote:
1. Scoring a road

The end of a road is closed when it meets a village, a city, a
monastery, or it loops onto itself by meeting the other end.


The long and short of it is the tile could be considered a badly designed tile that has the potential to confuse.

the T-junction is a terminal point. The bridge is not. Bad info was posted and corrected. ALL junctions and crossings end a road.
 
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PetyuskaDoom wrote:
Quote:
1. Scoring a road

The end of a road is closed when it meets a village, a city, a
monastery, or it loops onto itself by meeting the other end.

The long and short of it is the tile could be considered a badly designed tile that has the potential to confuse.

The new core box seems to have the same rule. You learn something new..

I first considered it a badly worded rule which only takes into account the graphics of the newest version. In the new graphics all crossings have villages. (And there are no core tiles with a village on the road without a crossing.)

The tile with the village on the road is from an expansion. According to the new core rules it seems that the village on the straight road on the left does end the road. (And grants 2 points, because the road consisted of 2 tiles.)

There may be similar tiles in the old version, but I have only seen a few of the first, and in those the only similar tile is the 2-road Monastery.

 
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Tim Schmitt
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I'm glad I have the old version!
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Michal Sasinski
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a1bert wrote:
PetyuskaDoom wrote:
Quote:
1. Scoring a road

The end of a road is closed when it meets a village, a city, a
monastery, or it loops onto itself by meeting the other end.

The long and short of it is the tile could be considered a badly designed tile that has the potential to confuse.

The new core box seems to have the same rule. You learn something new..

I first considered it a badly worded rule which only takes into account the graphics of the newest version. In the new graphics all crossings have villages. (And there are no core tiles with a village on the road without a crossing.)

The tile with the village on the road is from an expansion. According to the new core rules it seems that the village on the straight road on the left does end the road. (And grants 2 points, because the road consisted of 2 tiles.)

There may be similar tiles in the old version, but I have only seen a few of the first, and in those the only similar tile is the 2-road Monastery.



OMG. I also checked the rule included in 2016 version. Village does end the road. There is 2-tile road in this example.
 
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Philipp Conrad
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Majfrost wrote:
a1bert wrote:
PetyuskaDoom wrote:
Quote:
1. Scoring a road

The end of a road is closed when it meets a village, a city, a
monastery, or it loops onto itself by meeting the other end.

The long and short of it is the tile could be considered a badly designed tile that has the potential to confuse.

The new core box seems to have the same rule. You learn something new..

I first considered it a badly worded rule which only takes into account the graphics of the newest version. In the new graphics all crossings have villages. (And there are no core tiles with a village on the road without a crossing.)

The tile with the village on the road is from an expansion. According to the new core rules it seems that the village on the straight road on the left does end the road. (And grants 2 points, because the road consisted of 2 tiles.)

There may be similar tiles in the old version, but I have only seen a few of the first, and in those the only similar tile is the 2-road Monastery.



OMG. I also checked the rule included in 2016 version. Village does end the road. There is 2-tile road in this example.


Sorry, this is just not correct. The village on the left does not end the Road, since the Road goes "through" the City and "over" the Bridge. At the end of the game the Road would score 2 points, right now it won't score since it is not yet finished. The rule for the new edition never states something like that (at least I haven't found it anywhere).

Can you please show us the rule you found about this and show or quote it?

There are expansions with tiles that show Roads finishing in streets, but the shown tile isn't one of them. Only the junction on the right tile ends the Road.
 
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Michal Sasinski
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edit: replace 2016 with 2014 below. stupid me...

PhilippJC wrote:

Can you please show us the rule you found about this and show or quote it?


Completed annotated rules wrote:

A completed road
A road is completed when the road segments on
both sides end in a crossing,15 a city segment, or
a cloister, or when the road forms a closed
circle.


This how we all play.

Carcassonne 2016 wrote:

The end of a road is closed when it meets a village, a city, a
monastery, or it loops onto itself by meeting the other end.


It was already quoted above by Patrick.

This huge change does not change anything regarding 2016 base set, because all crossroads have villages and all villages are on cross roads.

But when looking at river expansion you can find this problematic tile. At this point I would say that this river tile really split road in two.

Maybe this is just a result of some careless graphical designer work. I did not found any FAQ on 2016 version.

Edit:
This get's even more confusing:

traders and builders 2016 page 1 wrote:

The bridge is not a junction. One road continues from left
to right, while the other goes from top to bottom. The roads
split the field into 4 separate fields.


According to base set junction does end a road, so what's the point of above statement.

Finally there is example in Inns and cathedrals 2016 page 2.



This village next to a river does not split the road.
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Samuel Arroyo Rodriguez
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I dont' undertand the confusion... it's clear... the road it's no end... stop please...
 
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