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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Rules

Subject: Weapon masteries and specialist rss

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Martin Buller
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I know this have been brought up before some time ago, but I really didnt agree with the conclusion, and with this being a fairly new game. I want to discuss it anew here on the forum with some new eyes and with more players on board.

When you gain weapon mastery, all survivors gain specialist in that weapon. If you start a new survivor who uses the same weapon, the survivor will have the specialist bonus from the start. But do they also get the 3 dots that make them specialists? I say yes, first of all, when you master a weapon it becomes a settlement innovation, the idea here is that the master can learn his ways to the settlement and eveyone will have a profound knowledge of that weapon. Kids will be using it growing up immitationg the grown ups and when they reach an age where they can hunt, they will already be specialists. I kinda imagine a sioux tribe here and their masteries of certain weapons, most noticeable the bow. This is the thematic reason, and the one that just makes sense, in my view at least.

The other reason is the player sheet. When you cross out 3 boxes you are a specialist, it there in black and white. I know it dosnt say on the weapon mastery card that you should also fill out the 3 boxes, but I think its a given.
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Fredrik Svensson
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I say no. You don't even choose your weapon proficiency until after your second hunt xp. And consider the more universally useful proficiencies - Fist & Tooth as a prime example. Everyone can utilize its specialization even if they're using and working towards mastery with another weapon.

If you want your new survivors to start with weapon xp dots, go for the family innovation and shack that weapon master up in your hovel.
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Riff Conner
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Unfortunately not. pg. 43: "If a new survivor wants to gain the benefits of a mastery that is already an innovation in the settlement, they must gain all 8 weapon proficiency levels." In other words, they haven't gained any automatically.

valle1 wrote:
The other reason is the player sheet. When you cross out 3 boxes you are a specialist, it there in black and white. I know it dosnt say on the weapon mastery card that you should also fill out the 3 boxes, but I think its a given.

Crossing out three boxes makes you a specialist, but becoming a specialist by other means doesn't grant you the three boxes. All tigers are cats, but not all cats are tigers.
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Martin Buller
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riffraff wrote:
Unfortunately not. pg. 43: "If a new survivor wants to gain the benefits of a mastery that is already an innovation in the settlement, they must gain all 8 weapon proficiency levels." In other words, they haven't gained any automatically.

valle1 wrote:
The other reason is the player sheet. When you cross out 3 boxes you are a specialist, it there in black and white. I know it dosnt say on the weapon mastery card that you should also fill out the 3 boxes, but I think its a given.

Crossing out three boxes makes you a specialist, but becoming a specialist by other means doesn't grant you the three boxes. All tigers are cats, but not all cats are tigers.


I missed that, thanks... It dosnt make sense to me, but I wont house rule since I dont want to make it easier than intended.
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Alessio Massuoli
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Maybe it's clearer if you think to it as any other milestone.
The official wording from Poots is that survivors, for a lots of events, may receive and lose points in something, resulting in them going back from a threshold for which they trigger a milestone, or going past a threshold for which they already triggered a milestone.

The official ruling for the former is that you don't lose what you gained when you go back from a milestone you already acquired, while for the latter you don't gain that milestone a second time.

Looking it that way, a Specialization is just something you write down as a character ability. Mastery as Innovation says that you begin with "Fist & Tooth Specialization" ability, but you actually begin with no weapon proficiency (unless getting it from Family). If you should ever get to trigger the "Fist & Tooth Specialization" milestone, you simply don't get the ability again, since that milestone was already triggered for that survivor.

If the system was like you said, that meant that you had to make every survivor get the same weapon type to get the benefit, since when they swapped they automatically lost their points.
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Ethan Sams
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t3clis wrote:
Maybe it's clearer if you think to it as any other milestone.
The official wording from Poots is that survivors, for a lots of events, may receive and lose points in something, resulting in them going back from a threshold for which they trigger a milestone, or going past a threshold for which they already triggered a milestone.

The official ruling for the former is that you don't lose what you gained when you go back from a milestone you already acquired, while for the latter you don't gain that milestone a second time.


Any idea where I could find this ruling? I've always played that the survivor gains the milestone a second time in the latter example.
 
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Brett Smith
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I think the answer is no, and for good reason: It makes your weapon master extremely valuable and you need to wrestle with the cost/benefit of taking the master out on to a hunt. Like so much of the game you need to balance the value of a specific survivor VS. the settlement, the benefit of mastery on a single hunt VS. the continued benefit of specialization. It makes retirement, through XP or early, valuable.

And, I get what your trying to say with your Sioux example, but it a little tone deaf. It is like saying all Danes are shipwrights and can sword fight. The Sioux are still around, they are my literal neighbors.
 
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Ethan Sams
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wizard tower wrote:
I think the answer is no, and for good reason: It makes your weapon master extremely valuable and you need to wrestle with the cost/benefit of taking the master out on to a hunt. Like so much of the game you need to balance the value of a specific survivor VS. the settlement, the benefit of mastery on a single hunt VS. the continued benefit of specialization. It makes retirement, through XP or early, valuable.


I may be misinterpreting you but it sounds like you're saying if the weapon master dies the settlement loses the mastery. That's incorrect; the settlement retains the mastery as an innovation even if the survivor that completed the mastery dies. The only value the weapon master holds is the fact that he/she is probably a badass.
 
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oliver kassel
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the way i see it, as the rule says (gain that weapon´s specialization ability in addition to their own weapon proficiencies, that means, if anyone has for example the axe mastery, and an other survivor has already the spear weapon proficiency, he can add the axe to his spear proficiency...!
now he can choose one from this two weapon keywords to gain weapon proficiency. if no one has master he must change his weapon type from axe to spear and loose his proficiency point by changing the weapon type
 
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Riff Conner
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As long as we're discussing Weapon Mastery, here's something I've been wondering about.

pg. 43:
"Specializations... [survivors] keep these benefits while their milestone remains filled."
"The master will keep the full benefits of the mastery, so long as the innovation remains in the settlement."

So:
1. A Sword Master remains a Sword Master even if they ditch their proficiency levels and switch to another weapon, so long as the settlement has the Sword Mastery innovation. If the settlement loses the innovation, he loses both mastery and specialization, because he no longer has either the innovation or the milestone.

2. A Sword Master who has not switched weapons when the innovation is lost loses mastery because of the loss of the innovation, but because he still has the milestone he keeps his specialization.

3. The Sword Master from example 2 will regain Mastery if a different survivor masters Sword, reacquiring the innovation for the settlement.

4. The Sword Master from example 2 will regain Mastery if he somehow loses one or more weapon proficiency levels and then regains them, reacquiring the innovation for the settlement himself.


Is all of that correct?
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Alessio Massuoli
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1. Correct
2. Suppose so, but only based on the snippets you quoted.
3. Same as above.
4. Wrong. You get the benefits of a milestone only the first time you hit it.
 
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Riff Conner
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t3clis wrote:
4. Wrong. You get the benefits of a milestone only the first time you hit it.

That's fair. Where is that rule from, though? The only reference for it I can find in the book is under Courage & Understanding on pg. 43, and that's referring specifically to the C&U milestones.
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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It was some clarification Poots made somewhere, I hope to be able to fetch it somewhere (the baby boy has a fever these days and he is occupying the room with the computer, one must let him sleep.... The cellphone is impractical to navigate bgg). Maybe some other regular remembers this discussion and can find that?
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Rob Hotz
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Ancient thread here, I know, but I read through this hoping for an answer to a related question: I agree that a new survivor should not fill in proficiency dots from the out set, but does this discussion imply that everyone agrees that the New Survivor even gets the Specialization bonus from a Mastery cum Settlement Innovation? This is not clear to me that it does because the language says that any Survivor can have the Specialization "in addition to any weapon proficiencies they already have." This indicates that they may have to already three dots in some other weapon. Could it be that if a New Survivor hasn't triggered the 1st Age Milestone, they are not able to benefit from the Specialization Innovation at all?
 
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Brian Church

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No, the newborn survivor would inherit the Specialization from the settlement innovation immediately (even before Age 1). I don't think the "...in addition to any weapon proficiencies they already have" rule is intended to be restrictive; it is intended to allow you to have multiple specializations.
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Alessio Massuoli
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When you change weapon type, you lose your proficiency, not specialization/mastery levels you attained.
 
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Brian Church

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t3clis wrote:
When you change weapon type, you lose your proficiency, not specialization/mastery levels you attained.


Where does it say that you keep specialization after losing all ranks of proficiency? I thought that this was limited to mastery only.
 
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Nick Wirtz
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Unless I missed a 1-->1.5 change, yeah, you lose specialization if you change or lose proficiency.
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Alessio Massuoli
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Ok, let me more specific going case by case, because otherwise we will go back and forth saying the same things

Let's say Survivor A has Weapon type Bows and switches to Whips, because life choices are not a strong suit of Survivor A.


- If Survivor A has 2 WP in Bows and there is no Bow Mastery as Innovation, it just begins with 0 WP in Whips.

- If Survivor A has 2 WP in Bows and there is Bow Mastery as Innovation, it keeps Bows Specialization and begins with 0 WP in Whips.

- If Survivor A has 4 WP in Bows and there is no Bow Mastery as Innovation, it begins with 0 WP in Whips and loses Specialization in Bows.


- If Survivor A has 4 WP in Bows and there is a Bow Mastery (not his) as Innovation, it begins with 0 WP in Whips, but it retains Specialization in Bows.

- If Survivor A has 8 WP in Bows, thus having a Mastery in Bows, and the Mastery is of course there as Innovation, it begins with 0 WP in Whips, but it retains Specialization in Bows because the Mastery is there as Innovation, and it retains Mastery in Bows because it earned it and Mastery does not get cancelled by changing Weapon Type.

So, for completeness' sake, I would like to change my statement in:
Quote:

When you change weapon type, you lose your proficiency, not mastery levels you attained and specialization levels you gained for the Settlement by getting the Mastery as an Innovation.


Source: Core 1.5 manual, page 43.

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Nick Wirtz
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Except, I'm nearly positive you don't gain specialization from a master being there; you just passively gain the benefits of it.
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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Po-tah-to, po-tay-to

Jokes aside, I think that "getting the benefits of Specialization as long as Innovation is there" is exactly the same as "you have the Specialization as long as Innovation is there".
 
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