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Subject: About the Pictures ?????? rss

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bruno faidutti
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The thread "about the pictures" was quite interesting, and after carefully reading all the posts, I cannot guess which one has been found offensive enough for the moderators to close the discussion.
People disagreed, but in a humorous, polite and witty way. Anyway, disagreements are what make a discussion interesting, since no one ever has anything to learn from a discussion where everyone agrees with him.
I perfectly understand that a discussion must be closed when someone is aggressive or insulting, but there was nothing of the kind there, and it was the only thread about this game that I was carefully following.
Is there something I've missed ?
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Russ Williams
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FWIW: to me a couple of posts seemed clearly not at all in any spirit of "polite discussion", but rather impolitely dismissive and mocking. (I hesitate to directly identify specific posts, but I'll say that you can see a clue because someone else evidently thought the same about one, and said so.)

Of course it is hard to know for sure what the intent of an internet post is.
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faidutti wrote:
I cannot guess which one has been found offensive enough for the moderators to close the discussion...Is there something I've missed ?


Read through the thread from the top and you'll see one post that has been edited with a comment. That's most likely the one that was flagged by one or more users...
 
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There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
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(Well there's a also second post lower down that has been collapsed/hidden, so that was also apparently reported to moderators...)
 
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
faidutti wrote:
I cannot guess which one has been found offensive enough for the moderators to close the discussion...Is there something I've missed ?


Read through the thread from the top and you'll see one post that has been edited with a comment. That's most likely the one that was flagged by one or more users...


I'm the author of the first post someone got offended by, but I don't think that was the cause of the thread block: it happened many hours after my edit, and I didn't received further notice from the moderators in my geekmail.
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Michael Weber
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Oh well, it is a thread about sex, nudity and gender issues, this was pretty sure to happen.

Talk about weapons and this won't happen - it is a strange world we live in after all
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bruno faidutti
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russ wrote:
FWIW: to me a couple of posts seemed clearly not at all in any spirit of "polite discussion", but rather impolitely dismissive and mocking. (I hesitate to directly identify specific posts, but I'll say that you can see a clue because someone else evidently thought the same about one, and said so.)

Of course it is hard to know for sure what the intent of an internet post is.


If it's the post about helicopters, even If I mostly disagree with it, I think it was a fun and witty way to make a point worth discussing.
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Octavian didn't explicitly say he was locking the thread, so it's possible he locked it accidentally. Sometimes he posts warnings like that without locking threads, and often (usually?) when he locks it, he refers to it being locked in the post.
 
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    In spite of explicitly requesting one, I did not receive a three day ban. So much for my street cred. But I did get a polite warning, so apparently I was either flagged or captured the attention of the moderators when they came in to review.

    I'll mention that Julia is a class act. Her response was pitch-perfect as far as I'm concerned. She put the thread back squarely on its tracks and I would have let it run because of it.

             S.

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I am glad i was not the only one scratching their head on the block
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faidutti wrote:
If it's the post about helicopters, even If I mostly disagree with it, I think it was a fun and witty way to make a point worth discussing.


It's really not witty, and for some people it's not fun.

Trans people frequently hear things like "Oh, so you just decided you're a man and you expect me to treat you as one? What if I decide I'm a pineapple, can I make you call me a pineapple?"

(I hope I don't need to explain all the things which are wrong with that line of questioning, but if I do need to elaborate, please ask. You will, however, have to trust me that it happens a lot and is not generally the beginning of a productive discussion.)

If that is not what that poster meant-- if they did not mean to suggest that the idea of gay or gender-variant people is as ridiculous as someone saying "I'm a helicopter!"-- then I can't make head or tail of the post.
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bruno faidutti
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grasa_total wrote:
faidutti wrote:
If it's the post about helicopters, even If I mostly disagree with it, I think it was a fun and witty way to make a point worth discussing.


It's really not witty, and for some people it's not fun.

Trans people frequently hear things like "Oh, so you just decided you're a man and you expect me to treat you as one? What if I decide I'm a pineapple, can I make you call me a pineapple?"

(I hope I don't need to explain all the things which are wrong with that line of questioning, but if I do need to elaborate, please ask. You will, however, have to trust me that it happens a lot and is not generally the beginning of a productive discussion.)

If that is not what that poster meant-- if they did not mean to suggest that the idea of gay or gender-variant people is as ridiculous as someone saying "I'm a helicopter!"-- then I can't make head or tail of the post.


This is indeed the idea I disagree with, but I think there's more than this.

I also saw an other idea there with which I more or less agree. It is that liberals, especially in the US (but it's coming in Europe now) are taking divisive identities too seriously, which has the paradoxical effect of reinforcing both them and their opposites and fostering exclusion and violence. You don't fight homo or transphobia with "inclusion" or with talk about respect for homosexual or trans people, but you do when you say that sexuality doesn't matter and when you refuse to take it seriously. Same about racism - you don't fight racism with "treating all races fairly", you just make it slightly more humane, but you do fight it with saying that the idea of human races is just ridiculous - which it is. Same with feminism, which imho should be less about women identity and more about abolishing all social and cultural distinctions between men and women, etc.

Anyway, if there is a political message to my game, it is that sex should not be taken too seriously.
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faidutti wrote:
grasa_total wrote:
faidutti wrote:
If it's the post about helicopters, even If I mostly disagree with it, I think it was a fun and witty way to make a point worth discussing.


It's really not witty, and for some people it's not fun.

Trans people frequently hear things like "Oh, so you just decided you're a man and you expect me to treat you as one? What if I decide I'm a pineapple, can I make you call me a pineapple?"

(I hope I don't need to explain all the things which are wrong with that line of questioning, but if I do need to elaborate, please ask. You will, however, have to trust me that it happens a lot and is not generally the beginning of a productive discussion.)

If that is not what that poster meant-- if they did not mean to suggest that the idea of gay or gender-variant people is as ridiculous as someone saying "I'm a helicopter!"-- then I can't make head or tail of the post.


This is indeed the idea I disagree with, but I think there's more than this.

I also saw an other idea there with which I more or less agree. It is that liberals, especially in the US (but it's coming in Europe now) are taking divisive identities too seriously, which has the paradoxical effect of reinforcing both them and their opposites and fostering exclusion and violence. You don't fight homo or transphobia with "inclusion" or with talk about respect for homosexual or trans people, but you do when you say that sexuality doesn't matter and when you refuse to take it seriously. Same about racism - you don't find racism with "treating all races fairly", you just make it slightly more humane, but you do fight it with saying that the idea of human races is just ridiculous - which it is. Same with feminism, which imho should be less about women identity and more about abolishing all social and cultural distinctions between men and women, etc.

Anyway, if there is a political message to my game, it is that sex should not be taken too seriously.


The U.S. isn't in a position for that approach. "Ubiquity" is still a ways off. For the moment these groups are working just to achieve equal protection under the law, and as it stands they are vastly more likely to be assaulted or killed by strangers than people in all other groups.

This from a tall straight white guy who works in the HIV community.

Seriously, I'm begging for a three day ban. If I get two threads locked I think I deserve it.

All that said, I love the idea of your game and have floated it to the Prevention team at work. Make it condoms instead of balloons and they have an interesting approach for community outreach. It would need adjustment for the gay community, but that's a relatively simple change.

S.

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Matthieu Jeanson
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I really don't want to go into the politics and whatnot.

But coincidentally, I was listening to this podcast today and I think it's saying about the same as what
bruno faidutti
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is saying:

"
DUBNER: But you know it seems to me at least that there is a little bit of Catch-22 in that in the modern era we talk a lot about equity and fairness and reparations of different sorts and therefore dwell even more on the defining characteristics that are different. And my concern is that by focusing on the differences, you essentially just continue to rebuild and re-create and magnify the stereotypes. Am I wrong?

LEWIS: I think you’re right. If you want to reduce the power of a stereotype, you eliminate the classifications. The more you reinforce the classifications, the more powerful the stereotype will be. That’s their work, I mean that’s not me speaking. That’s their work. And so it is, you’re absolutely right, the more we focus on race as a differentiator between people, the more stereotypes are going to be driving people’s judgments.
"

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/men-started-thinking-revolut...
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mjeanson wrote:
the more we focus on race as a differentiator between people, the more stereotypes are going to be driving people’s judgments.
"


I agree that PC culture has gone too far in some instances, but being colorblind isn't really an answer either. There are stereotypes that do exist, and if the people who recognized that these stereotypes are problematic just act like they don't exist, then those who haven't recognized this will just continue using them. Representation matters. Look at the USA, people came out of the closet, and there were more and more gay characters on TV, and now it's legal for gay people to marry. But there are people who demand that they are called pronoun they just invented, otherkins who identify as animals or elves... The helicopter comment in my eyes was just a question of won't this go too far? Also there are people saying all white men are racist and sexist. They do this by reinventing the words, but the collective guilt they generate is really doing the cause a disservice, and you could argue they are racist and sexist based on the original definition of the words.

So, all I'm saying is I think there has to be a middle ground (and I don't know where it is, but it's important to ask), and the helicopter comment was just a satiric way of asking "aren't you going too far?"

Another thing is that, for example, you don't know, but maybe the illustrator used himself and his wife as models for the picture, then to politely ask why there isn't more kind of people represented is one thing, but to get all upset about it is another.
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Well, saying all white men are racist and sexist is kind of a pot calling the kettle black scenario. By making such a generalization, you are effectively becoming what you decry.

I prefer to look at this stuff from the research on bias. We all have biases. The really ugly biases are those we are not explicitly aware of. If we can get people to accept that being biased is part of being human and looking at what they can do to be more aware of and reduce their biases, then we would be better off. Finger pointing does not generally get people to critically think and/or suddenly share your view.
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I think the other thread stopped at just the right point.

 
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Smilinbrax wrote:

I prefer to look at this stuff from the research on bias. We all have biases. The really ugly biases are those we are not explicitly aware of. If we can get people to accept that being biased is part of being human and looking at what they can do to be more aware of and reduce their biases, then we would be better off. Finger pointing does not generally get people to critically think and/or suddenly share your view.


That's a great way to look at it!
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faidutti wrote:
Anyway, if there is a political message to my game, it is that sex should not be taken too seriously.


It isn't like accidently picking up diet soda when you meant to get regular. Sex has drastic consequences, and should always be taken seriously.
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faidutti wrote:
You don't fight homo or transphobia with "inclusion" or with talk about respect for homosexual or trans people, but you do when you say that sexuality doesn't matter and when you refuse to take it seriously.


Oddly, I feel that the principles you describe form an argument for doing things differently from Kamasutra!

I agree with you, by the way, that for instance if the illustrations had been more varied, it would have been awful for the rulebook to say in big letters "We have made a point of including some same-sex couples because tolerance is so important to us." At least, I think that's the kind of thing you're talking about? It claims to open its arms to all kinds of people but in doing so, makes clear that there's still a "them" and "us". Down with that.

But when you say the reason you did it a certain way is to make sexual orientation less important... I cannot agree Kamasutra does that. More specifically, I think where we differ is on the question of which potential game takes sexual orientiation more seriously:

• a game depicting only straight pairings
• a game depicting straight pairings and gay pairings and some people whose gender isn't obvious because sometimes it doesn't matter anyway

People are in fact different from one another. And too often, when somebody says "we should all be the same" they are imagining everybody else becoming more like them, but not them having to become more like everybody else. If you want to erase the differences between gay and straight, you should plant your flag somewhere that both gay and straight people will be happy traveling to before they throw away their identities. Planting the "we should all be the same" flag in Straightville just sends the message "we should all be straight", and I can tell that is not your intention.

(Since there has been so much critical commentary, I want to make clear that I think people should make the games they want to make, especially if they're giving them away! I might have enjoyed Kamasutra more if it were different, but I don't think making it as it is was a misdeed, and I am not demanding you do anything differently. I just think you made a game in which straightness is very important and so hearing it described as a game in which sexuality is not important takes me aback.)
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I missed the original post but did anyone bring up the name of the game? It's called "Kamasutra", which by my educated guess is related to the book called Kama Sutra. What is this book about? Oh, it is about relationships between a man and a woman... Why do people think that every single game has to be designed for their tastes and be inclusive as much as possible? Are you a transgender/gay/etc person and you don't like the illustrations for the game in question? Congratulations, quietly proceed to any other game in the database, maybe this time you will be luckier.
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bruno faidutti
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grasa_total wrote:
faidutti wrote:
You don't fight homo or transphobia with "inclusion" or with talk about respect for homosexual or trans people, but you do when you say that sexuality doesn't matter and when you refuse to take it seriously.


Oddly, I feel that the principles you describe form an argument for doing things differently from Kamasutra!

I agree with you, by the way, that for instance if the illustrations had been more varied, it would have been awful for the rulebook to say in big letters "We have made a point of including some same-sex couples because tolerance is so important to us." At least, I think that's the kind of thing you're talking about? It claims to open its arms to all kinds of people but in doing so, makes clear that there's still a "them" and "us". Down with that.

But when you say the reason you did it a certain way is to make sexual orientation less important... I cannot agree Kamasutra does that. More specifically, I think where we differ is on the question of which potential game takes sexual orientiation more seriously:

• a game depicting only straight pairings
• a game depicting straight pairings and gay pairings and some people whose gender isn't obvious because sometimes it doesn't matter anyway

People are in fact different from one another. And too often, when somebody says "we should all be the same" they are imagining everybody else becoming more like them, but not them having to become more like everybody else. If you want to erase the differences between gay and straight, you should plant your flag somewhere that both gay and straight people will be happy traveling to before they throw away their identities. Planting the "we should all be the same" flag in Straightville just sends the message "we should all be straight", and I can tell that is not your intention.

(Since there has been so much critical commentary, I want to make clear that I think people should make the games they want to make, especially if they're giving them away! I might have enjoyed Kamasutra more if it were different, but I don't think making it as it is was a misdeed, and I am not demanding you do anything differently. I just think you made a game in which straightness is very important and so hearing it described as a game in which sexuality is not important takes me aback.)


My remarks about the american identity fetish were made not to defend my game but to defend the "helicopter post", even though I don't totally agree with it.

As for the reasons my game has only straight pictures, I've already listed them in another forum discussion, and I copy paste them here :


The Kamasutra and all the folklore about the various positions, and specifically their names in French, English and Japanese (Japanese was added mostly because of the poetic traditional names of many positions) refer to heterosexual positions.

There is certainly a gay and lesbian folklore about sex positions, and traditional jokes and names, but it's probably poorer than the heterosexual one, and anyway I don't know it. It's poorer for two main reasons - fewer people involved, and a long history of secret which makes that this folklore is more recent - unless maybe if one can read ancient greek, and I can't.

It seems to me - but I may be wrong having absolutely zero homosexual experience - that the assymetry of heterosexual sex makes for a greater number of technically possible positions.

It is also for purely technical reasons that there are no oral sex positions - popping a ballon with pressing one's face on it is not fun and could be dangerous. Actually, David had started to draw a few such cards before I told him they won't work with the game.

On the other hand,we've played many games with teams of two guys or two girls, and it works perfectly.
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bruno faidutti
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https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opinion/sunday/the-end-of...

A very interesting piece about helicopters.
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faidutti wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opinion/sunday/the-end-of...

A very interesting piece about helicopters.


Fantastic article. Thanks for sharing. One great voice coming from a more centrist view that tends to discuss and explore these topics is Dave Rubin's show on YouTube. I highly recommend it.
 
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faidutti wrote:
My remarks about the american identity fetish were made not to defend my game but to defend the "helicopter post", even though I don't totally agree with it.


What exactly does having an "identity fetish" look like? By any definition I can think of, straight people are no less likely to have one than gay people.

But straight people don't have to worry that, if they make their identity a big part of how they make art or what they expect the world to be like, people will come along and say "ha ha ha, you think you're 'straight'? what is that even. it's something you made up, right? okay, sure, you're 'straight', whatever that is, and i'm a helicopter! zoom zoom!"

Treating gay people that way doesn't add anything to the discussion, so I am urging you to spend your positive energy on people who think gay people are human, instead of people who think gay people are helicopters.
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