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Gloomhaven» Forums » General

Subject: Why keep "Battle Goal Cards" hidden?? rss

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John Van Wagoner
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if i'm just playing a 2p game with my wife, and we're just trying to complete the various scenarios/etc., why bother hiding my Battle Goal Card from her? what's the point?
 
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Gavin Robinson
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John_VW wrote:
if i'm just playing a 2p game with my wife, and we're just trying to complete the various scenarios/etc., why bother hiding my Battle Goal Card from her? what's the point?


My assumption is that you are thrown together as a team, but you don't necessarily trust each other. It's thematic to the game. You each have your own agendas (goals). If you were put with a group of people who you didn't know, to go off on an adventure (team building exercise) would you disclose what your intentions were? Or would you fear that letting others know would undermine what you were trying to achieve.
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Miguel Guijo
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Becose is fun an thematic. You are mercs, you have your own agenda and you are working with others to achieve it. You do not have to share anything with them, they are not friends. Perhaps they do not like your goals, is better to keep them to yourself.
Bet the greatest reason is that it is more fun without sharing all the info.
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Gordon Au
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I like the hidden stuff in the game; it helps with preventing the Alpha player syndrome which I'm often guilty of, but if I don't have all the information I can't 'help' people with their turns. I play a lot of games with my wife too, and I think it will get her more engaged in the game knowing that I can't really help her make some of these decisions. Well, that's my hope anyway.
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John Van Wagoner
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my wife is just going to say "well fine, you're on your own" and leave the tile/room (and probably the game)...
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Chris Leigh
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I'm pretty sure its because they might cause you to play suboptimally and keeping it hidden prevents the alpha player. With 2 married people that might not be an issue, play how you want
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Gordon Au
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John_VW wrote:
my wife is just going to say "well fine, you're on your own" and leave the tile/room (and probably the game)...


In that case, I'd go with the option to play open hands and include the goal cards! Better to have a wife that plays at least a variant of the game...
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Pauly Paul
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Zolzar wrote:
John_VW wrote:
my wife is just going to say "well fine, you're on your own" and leave the tile/room (and probably the game)...


In that case, I'd go with the option to play open hands and include the goal cards! Better to have a wife that plays at lest a variant of the game...


I agree with this too. I don't think it's game breaking to play like this.

I'm unsure what I will do myself to be honest. My group really likes the "team" aspect of playing co-ops and focusing too much on "I don't know you, I don't trust you" might kill some of our enjoyment. Given how long the game will take for us to work our way through, that doesn't seem worth it.
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Benjamin Gentzel
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So obviously there is no 'traitor' in Gloomhaven, but think of it like Dead of Winter if you're familiar with it. In that game, every player has a secret objective that they must complete to win. It causes them to occasionally play suboptimally and makes things less predictable.

In Gloomhaven, by not knowing your allies' battle goals, they may surprise you. You might think "Okay, we're doing good. I can probably finish off this guy and he finishes off him." Your ally's like, "Well, I'll tryyyyy..... I'm going to prioritize looting as higher though." "WHAT!?"

Or "Okay, just take it slow, I need to heal." "Sorry, no can do. Battle goal. NEXT ROOM, GO!"

It's not about not TRUSTing them, but it encourages the players to play more suboptimally. If players have perfect information about battle goals, it removes some of the surprise and added challenge of battle goals.
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Greg
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It's your game. Play it the way you want and keep your wife happy and continuing to play.
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Jason Winterfeld
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John_VW wrote:
my wife is just going to say "well fine, you're on your own" and leave the tile/room (and probably the game)...


If it will ruin her experience then I would say share... you are playing this game to have fun with your group of friends/family. So if the rules makes it less enjoyable for one then break that rule as long as breaking it doesn't ruin the experience for the other.
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Noel Szczepanski
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A scenario for perspective:

I had expected the Brute to engage a group of enemies towards the end of our scenario. I, anticipating that very obvious move, charged forward into the group of enemies. The Brute, however, had to do something contrary in order to succeed at his goal. I, playing as the scoundrel, was left alone in a group of enemies and as a result I was knocked down to 1 health and 1 card and was exhausted in the next round.

As someone else said, it also prevents alpha-gaming. I'm probably the most analytical player in my group so when we play games with the potential of alpha-gaming I try to keep quiet or offer a variety of options so as to not TELL them how to play. But in this instance it was so obvious to me that I ended up telling the player what he should do. Ooops. I slipped up and was quickly put in my place - thankfully. So the cards are also VERY effective at curtailing alpha-gamers.


TL;DR: They make the game more challenging, flavorful, and can stop meta-gaming. You will want to find a way to increase difficulty if you don't keep them secret.
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Jason Winterfeld
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Also I believe that are battle goals (like some mentioned above) that might hinder the party advancing. So you might go down the path of jeopardizing the party for the good of yourself. I think that was the intention of keeping the secret, because it might sway your group to do things differently if they know at the end you are going to loot everything or rest to get more cards back in your hand to complete that battle goal, instead of fighting.
 
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John Van Wagoner
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Suit Sage wrote:
So obviously there is no 'traitor' in Gloomhaven, but think of it like Dead of Winter if you're familiar with it. In that game, every player has a secret objective that they must complete to win. It causes them to occasionally play suboptimally and makes things less predictable.

In Gloomhaven, by not knowing your allies' battle goals, they may surprise you. You might think "Okay, we're doing good. I can probably finish off this guy and he finishes off him." Your ally's like, "Well, I'll tryyyyy..... I'm going to prioritize looting as higher though." "WHAT!?"

Or "Okay, just take it slow, I need to heal." "Sorry, no can do. Battle goal. NEXT ROOM, GO!"

It's not about not TRUSTing them, but it encourages the players to play more suboptimally. If players have perfect information about battle goals, it removes some of the surprise and added challenge of battle goals.
we don't use secret obj's either when we play Dead of Winter... shake
 
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Patrik Severinsson
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P0isson wrote:
A scenario for perspective:

I had expected the Brute to engage a group of enemies towards the end of our scenario. I, anticipating that very obvious move, charged forward into the group of enemies. The Brute, however, had to do something contrary in order to succeed at his goal. I, playing as the scoundrel, was left alone in a group of enemies and as a result I was knocked down to 1 health and 1 card and was exhausted in the next round.
That doesn't really sound like a fun experience for you. At least I wouldn't have liked it.
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Greg
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Helikoputtrik wrote:
P0isson wrote:
A scenario for perspective:

I had expected the Brute to engage a group of enemies towards the end of our scenario. I, anticipating that very obvious move, charged forward into the group of enemies. The Brute, however, had to do something contrary in order to succeed at his goal. I, playing as the scoundrel, was left alone in a group of enemies and as a result I was knocked down to 1 health and 1 card and was exhausted in the next round.
That doesn't really sound like a fun experience for you. At least I wouldn't have liked it.


It sounds cinematic though and a good story.

If everything is planned out and scripted for optimization, then that sounds like a dry euro and not fun to me.
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Johannes Benedikt
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Like others have said, these cards are kept hidden to counteract Alpha-players from occuring and are supposed to make the game less predictable.

If you don't value these things, just ignore keeping them hidden. It will without a doubt change the very unique atmosphere Gloomhaven's gameplay evokes, but it seems to be not that essential for keeping the game functioning, at least if you play Gloomhaven solo, these cards won't be hidden either.
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Jim Lederer
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My experience running D&D with a party including chaotic and/or evil characters was that they often went their own way or wanted to torture the hostages or grab something and keep it secret that they had it...and while it sounded cool - like the kind of thing that would happen in a book...it caused the party to fail and/or others suffered and in real life or in a book the Fellowship would split up...like in LOTR or Raistlin leaving the group in Dragonlance...

The fact that they would backstab each other is typically why the bad guys would lose to the good guys in many stories.
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Chad Krauss
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Since this is a long campaign and you will be playing multiple characters throughout then maybe play the first characters with battle goals revealed and the next characters without. That way you and your wife can experience both ways and decide which way you like better.
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James Webster
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Dude. Happy wife, happy life. Do what y'all find plays best and is the most fun.
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Greysbull
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I'm gonna play solo or with my wife only. In solo mode, I'll know both objectives. What's the difference when playing with the wife when the objective is to have fun together, without any kind of attrition?
 
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Skire Kreshnar
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P0isson wrote:
A scenario for perspective:

I had expected the Brute to engage a group of enemies towards the end of our scenario. I, anticipating that very obvious move, charged forward into the group of enemies. The Brute, however, had to do something contrary in order to succeed at his goal. I, playing as the scoundrel, was left alone in a group of enemies and as a result I was knocked down to 1 health and 1 card and was exhausted in the next round.

As someone else said, it also prevents alpha-gaming. I'm probably the most analytical player in my group so when we play games with the potential of alpha-gaming I try to keep quiet or offer a variety of options so as to not TELL them how to play. But in this instance it was so obvious to me that I ended up telling the player what he should do. Ooops. I slipped up and was quickly put in my place - thankfully. So the cards are also VERY effective at curtailing alpha-gamers.


TL;DR: They make the game more challenging, flavorful, and can stop meta-gaming. You will want to find a way to increase difficulty if you don't keep them secret.


But you're suppose to discuss tactics each turn, no?
So when you say "I think I'll charge forward" and he says "ACTUALLY... I've gotta do something else first" that would stop the unfortunate situation in it's tracks.
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Johannes Benedikt
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marcusnc wrote:
I'm gonna play solo or with my wife only. In solo mode, I'll know both objectives. What's the difference when playing with the wife when the objective is to have fun together, without any kind of attrition?


Mechanically there is no difference. However the more you know about the other player's cards, the more Alpha gaming can occur and seeing how little room this game has for luck, can become pretty engrossing.

Of course there is no alpha gamer problem in solo mode and some would like to think that in marriages these things have been worked out or at least ways have been found how to handle such things, so maybe it's no problem either for couples.

Yet at the same time I think this game is pretty prone to alpha-gaming without these mechanisms, so advance at your own risk and pls don't blame the game or the design for being prone to alpha gaming.
 
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Levi C
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I watched some few minutes of the Man vs Meeple video where Isaac played with them. At one point in the campaign I guess Isaac says, "Use card XXXX", and the player is like... "Oh... I don't actually have that card..."

I think this shows another way this game will shut down alpha player even without battle goals. There is simply too much going on to know your allys hand/deck/items/ etc. And even as you start to learn what they have, they are constantly changing it. I have too much to focus on with which cards I can lose, or discard, when to use my potions, should I long rest or short; I don't think there will be much coaching for other players, maybe minor stuff.
MAYBE, just maybe some of the alpha players are so psyched for this game they know every starting class and all their cards, but after like level 3 you are going to be losing track of what I have added, and each mission I can bring different cards... And I gaurantee once I unlock/start hidden character 7, and this other player starts hidden char 11, you are not going to know what our ability cards are, and you are not going to be coaching other than... "Please kill that for me" or whatever.

I mean even the GAME DESIGNER was not able to be an alpha player, and he definitely knows all the cards. I think you will not have much alpha player-ing going on, or if any only at the very start of the campaign.
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Antonio Caciolli
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I think the purpose of keeping secret the battle goals is that they can conflict together (especially in 4 players party)

so if you should kill all elite and your comrades kill the last enemy in each room and you keep everything secret it can be fun to see what happens

on the other way you can decide to share those information and work together to fulfil all goals

There's a report from a PnP game where the sister understood the battle goal of the brother and tried all the time to prevent him keeping his perks :-D

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