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Subject: Why have the reshuffling rules been amended? rss

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Jorge
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I've noticed that the reshuffle rules have been amended:
* If you have to do anything with your deck - for example draw, look at, reveal, set aside, discard, or trash cards - and you need more cards than are left in your deck, first shuffle your discard pile and put it under your deck, then do the thing.
* If there are still not enough cards, you do the thing with however many cards you can. If when shuffling there are no cards in your deck, the shuffled discard pile simply becomes your new deck.
* When your deck is empty, you do not shuffle until you need to do something with cards from your deck.
* If you have to put a card on top of your deck when it is empty, that card becomes the only card in your deck.
* When his Deck is exhausted and the player needs to draw or reveal cards from his Deck, he shuffles his Discard pile to reform his Deck. He does not shuffle his Discard pile until he needs to reveal or draw a card from his Deck and cannot.
* At any point in the game, if a player has to draw or reveal more cards than are remaining in his Deck, he must draw or reveal as many as he can and then shuffle his face-up Discard pile to form a new face-down Deck. Then, he draws or reveals the remaining number of cards from his newly shuffled Deck.


1) What was the motive behind this amendment?
2) Why is "shuffle, place under the draw pile and then do your thing (e.g., draw)" different from "do (e.g., draw) as much as you can, reshuffle and do the rest"?

I get it that when playing without Stash, these two cases are identical. But how does Stash change it? You can peek at the remaining cards, you may not shuffle Stash within these, so what's different? What am I missing?

Nota bene: I do get that the original rules stated "draw or reveal" but now there are other cases like "discard" (Sea Hag, Warrior), so these cases had to be added.
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Tables
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Mainly it was to make the rules simpler in execution. Functionally, it's identical for everything except Stash, and that gets an exception/change in 2nd edition to make it work like it used to anyway.
 
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Dane Maslen
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Picon wrote:
But how does Stash change it? You can peek at the remaining cards, you may not shuffle Stash within these, so what's different? What am I missing?

I might be misunderstanding the point you are making, but with the old rules there was a potential implication that one could look at the cards one had already drawn before deciding where to put Stash during the shuffle, whereas with the new rules one clearly cannot do that because all the cards are drawn after the shuffle.
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Jorge
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I Eat Tables wrote:
Mainly it was to make the rules simpler in execution. Functionally, it's identical for everything except Stash, and that gets an exception/change in 2nd edition to make it work like it used to anyway.
That's exactly my question, Sir! Why is is different with Stash? If it is different, at all.

danemaslen wrote:
I might be misunderstanding the point you are making, but with the old rules there was a potential implication that one could look at the cards one had already drawn before deciding where to put Stash during the shuffle, whereas with the new rules one clearly cannot do that because all the cards are drawn after the shuffle.
But you CAN consult your remaining cards:

When shuffling Stash cards in your discard pile, you may only place those Stash cards anywhere among the shuffled cards; they cannot be placed on top of or in between any remaining cards in your deck. Also, you may look at any remaining cards in your deck before choosing where to place the Stash cards in your shuffled discard pile.


 
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Donald X.
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Picon wrote:
1) What was the motive behind this amendment?
2) Why is "shuffle, place under the draw pile and then do your thing (e.g., draw)" different from "do (e.g., draw) as much as you can, reshuffle and do the rest"?

The idea was to simplify situations where what you are doing with the cards is not trivial. "When you have to draw more cards than are left, draw the remaining cards, then shuffle to get the rest" works fine. You can add a few verbs beyond "draw," but when there are a lot of different things you can do with the cards, you end up with confusing cases. The new method eliminates any confusion.

And it's something many people were already doing. It also makes you less likely to draw etc. the wrong number of cards.

Picon wrote:
I get it that when playing without Stash, these two cases are identical. But how does Stash change it? You can peek at the remaining cards, you may not shuffle Stash within these, so what's different? What am I missing?

With the old rules and old Stash, you play Smithy with 2 cards left, draw those cards and can look at them and everything, and then shuffle, choosing where to put Stash, and draw the third card.

With the new rules and old Stash, you play Smithy with 2 cards left, shuffle your discard pile without getting to look at those 2 cards but picking where to put Stash, put the shuffled cards under the 2 cards and then draw 3.

Stash will eventually appear with a new wording that ends up giving it the original functionality.
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Jorge
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donaldx wrote:
With the new rules and old Stash, you play Smithy with 2 cards left, shuffle your discard pile without getting to look at those 2 cards but picking where to put Stash, put the shuffled cards under the 2 cards and then draw 3.
Thank you very much, Donald, this is exactly what I was looking for. So, I take it that this clarification on the wiki page is wrong?

When shuffling Stash cards in your discard pile, you may only place those Stash cards anywhere among the shuffled cards; they cannot be placed on top of or in between any remaining cards in your deck. Also, you may look at any remaining cards in your deck before choosing where to place the Stash cards in your shuffled discard pile.


Is this clarification derived from the base-game rules, or is the upcoming Stash granting a specific exception to the rule?
 
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Donald X.
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Picon wrote:
Thank you very much, Donald, this is exactly what I was looking for. So, I take it that this clarification on the wiki page is wrong?

When shuffling Stash cards in your discard pile, you may only place those Stash cards anywhere among the shuffled cards; they cannot be placed on top of or in between any remaining cards in your deck. Also, you may look at any remaining cards in your deck before choosing where to place the Stash cards in your shuffled discard pile.


Is this clarification derived from the base-game rules, or is the upcoming Stash granting a specific exception to the rule?

I'd like to feel like I'm not responsible for the wiki. I don't write it. I don't know if they haven't looked at that paragraph lately, or are covering the new Stash or what.

What I explained about Stash, I don't think I got wrong. If you feel the wiki is unclear or wrong there, you can edit it.
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Jorge
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donaldx wrote:
I'd like to feel like I'm not responsible for the wiki. I don't write it.
Never claimed that; the history of the page is public, so it's evident who's editing it. Thank you very much for the confirmation. Looking forward to seeing the new Stash!
 
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