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Subject: Question about the spell Set's Bite rss

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Game Empire Chuck
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Set's Bite seems to have 2 parts. The first part is that it forces the target hero to move one gem from Reserve to Fatigue. That seems clear. However, in the second part the OL rolls 2 red dice and counts successes. To the extent that the successes exceed the target's defense power, the target hero loses that many gems. But how do you determine the Hero's defense power? Can the hero use the guard action, armor, shield, and/or parry with weapon? It seems odd to me that a hero could use a shield, a sword, and/or a piece of armor to avoid damage from a magic spell.
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Stephan Beal
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chazaroo wrote:
Set's Bite seems to have 2 parts. The first part is that...


It would be a big help if you'll quote the card's text, rather than expect readers to go fish out their copy for analysis.
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Jim Williamson
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Imagine the spell this way: The caster conjures up a mystical snake that inflicts the bite, then the snake dissipates.

You can use a Guard action and you can use a Shield & Armor to defend against the second effect of the spell. You cannot defend against a spell with any item other than a shield.
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Game Empire Chuck
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sgbeal wrote:
chazaroo wrote:
Set's Bite seems to have 2 parts. The first part is that...


It would be a big help if you'll quote the card's text, rather than expect readers to go fish out their copy for analysis.


It states as follows:
Attack a character in your line of sight; roll [2 red dice]. That character's controller moves 1 gem from their Reserve zone to their Fatigue zone. If the attack power is greater than the defense power, the defender suffers damage equal to the difference.

I added the underlining.

So the question is: how do you calculate the defense power? Can you use weapons, shields, guard action, and/or armor against this spell? Jim says yes above and I probably agree. But since there is no fluff description of the spell, the answer may be that only a guard action can be used to determine the defense power.
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anthony
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It means it is an attack, exactly like a melee/ranged attack.
Roll dice for the attack, defender rolls his defence (armour and/or guard), excess are wounds caused.

Wether you need a shield (like a ranged attack) or a sword can defend against it (like a melee attack) is not defined.

Personally, as spell attacks tend to be the weakest attacks (you cannot spend gems to 'boost' them and you only generally get 1 shot per turn) I would be tempted to 'house rule' that you can only dodge a spell (a dodge is defined as a Guard action that uses no equipment).
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Keith Baker
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Under the description of 'Guard' on pg 7 of the Heroes' booklet it states that only shields along with your armor can be used against spells.
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anthony
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Are you looking at the old or new hero book?

The new book only specifies shields for Ranged and Area attacks. No mention of spells.
There is also no mention of what type of attack a spell is (if it is a ranged attack or its own bracket of spell attack ), just that it is an attack.

I dont have the old book to hand but, iirc, it also only specified ranged and area attacks for shields.
Could you quote the relevant part (I no longer have the old book in digital format as the filenames are the same)?
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Tom Zsolt
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The new rule book under Area Attacks (page 22) states that:

"Guard bonuses from weapon cards cannot be used to defend
against area attacks, but dodging, Armor, and Guard bonuses
from shields work as usual. Assets with the area attack icon (such
as the Explosive Orb) are discarded after use."

Under guarding (page 11) it also states:

"A hero can choose only a shield when defending against a
ranged or area attack."

So basically since an attack spell is either a ranged or an area attack then you can use a shield or armour to defend, but not a weapon. Note that not all spells are attack spells.
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anthony
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I dont believe it states anywhere that a spell is a ranged attack; either in the rulebook or on the cards. Ranged attack very specifically refers to the Ranged attack icon (both the action and the equipment that you use with it).

Lightning storm (for example) is very clearly an area attack.

I admit, a spell attack must be something, but that something is not stated in the rules (other than to say it is an attack of some kind).
I do think it is missing from the rules and it may be that attack spells are meant to be ranged attacks.

Of course, the separate issue then is that, as a ranged attack, spell attacks are comparatively weak and inefficient.
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J P
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CardboardAnt wrote:
I dont believe it states anywhere that a spell is a ranged attack; either in the rulebook or on the cards. Ranged attack very specifically refers to the Ranged attack icon (both the action and the equipment that you use with it).

Lightning storm (for example) is very clearly an area attack.

I admit, a spell attack must be something, but that something is not stated in the rules (other than to say it is an attack of some kind).
I do think it is missing from the rules and it may be that attack spells are meant to be ranged attacks.

Of course, the separate issue then is that, as a ranged attack, spell attacks are comparatively weak and inefficient.


The little explosion icon on spell cards denote an area attack. It says so in the rules. As for ranged attacks, go look at the card for Bori's Rage. Look at the icon and read the words. Do you really need it spelled out for you that it's a ranged attack??
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Tom Zsolt
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The options are ranged, area or melee. They are definitely not a melee attack.

Edit: I realised what I said earlier was a bit ambiguous. What I meant is that some spells are area attacks and some are targeted at individuals which make them a ranged attack. Of course there are also spells that are not attack spells at all.
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anthony
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I already said that Lightning storm is clearly an area attack; it has the area attack icon.

I am also not saying that Bori's rage is certainly not a ranged attack, I am saying that there is nothing in the rules that confirms it is a ranged attack (and that includes on the cards).
Neither is there anything that confirms Hand of Death is a melee attack, for example.

You can infer that these are ranged and melee attacks, but you have to admit that it is just an inference.

This info is either missing from that rules (most likely) or deliberately left out because they are not meant to melee/ranged attacks. Or they are a separate category of 'Spell Attack' that is neither ranged or melee (as the old rules made mention in the Guard action; this is missing from the new rules).

I would also claim that (for example) Bori's Rage is weak and inefficient as a ranged attack. I am not submitting this as evidence against it being a ranged attack, it is just an observation.


 
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Keith Baker
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'A hero can choose only a shield when defending against a spell, ranged or area attack.'

P7 original rule book
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anthony
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Please read my post

The reference to spells in the Guard action has been (deliberately?) removed in the new rules.
We could imagine that they intended to put something in the new spells section, but there is nothing there.

In the old hero book spells were clearly not ranged attacks (evidenced by stating them separately in the Guard action); as some spells are used at melee range (eg. Hand of Death) it makes sense to treat them differently so swords cannot defend against melee spells.

Also, a spell caster is far more effective if given a bow rather than casting Bori's Rage as he could attack twice for the same gems (comment stands in the new rules if it is still intended sheilds can be used). This seems 'off' to me.

I think I have exhausted everything I can say on tbe matter of spells in the new rulebook until we get errata/faq.
 
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Conan Meriadoc
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Note that in the new rulebook, casting spells is never subject to hindering, so you'd be able to cast Bori's rage on a distant foe even while surrounded by enemies. This, at least, is an advantage over ranged attacks, though they're a lot more flexible and apply weapon bonuses.

Set being an evil god, I think the bite spell was balanced with overlord units in mind; when given to the overlord, a spell is cast in addition to the unit's attack, so it could still mean quite a lot of damage with a single activation.
 
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B C
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Dystopian wrote:
Set being an evil god, I think the bite spell was balanced with overlord units in mind; when given to the overlord, a spell is cast in addition to the unit's attack, so it could still mean quite a lot of damage with a single activation.


In the Overlord book (at least the new revised rules top of page 8) it states that when you activate a caster you ALSO have to spend the gems to cast spells. For Set's Bite that would mean 1 Gem to activate the tile and 2 more Gems to cast the spell.

Additionally, IMO CardboardAnt has a point about Bori's Rage being weak. Hadrathus seems largely superfluous in the Hunting the Tigress scenario with it, though I haven't tried the revised scenario.
 
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