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Subject: Two questions about champions rss

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Josh Buchanan
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1. A champion's guard ability is only in effect when it is untapped, correct? If I use his primary ability, he will effectively lose his guard status until he is untapped again, either by card or by turn.

2. Does a champion have to use his primary ability to get his ally ability? Or does the ally ability go off whether or not you tap him?
 
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Chad Edmunds
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NinjaGigolo wrote:
1. A champion's guard ability is only in effect when it is untapped, correct? If I use his primary ability, he will effectively lose his guard status until he is untapped again, either by card or by turn.

2. Does a champion have to use his primary ability to get his ally ability? Or does the ally ability go off whether or not you tap him?


1. A guard is always a guard, tapped or not. However I can think of no situation where it matters, as champions are readied at the end of the turn, and before an opponent can stun them. Maybe in coop it will/does matter?

2. No. Allied abilities are available immediately once the card is allied. Timing its effect is up to the player, but in the case of champions, they do not need to be tapped. Nor is the ally ability "gone" once the champion is tapped, ie. if you tap a champion and then play an ally, the ability still triggers.

Tapping is simply a more elegant way of doing what Star Realms did with the "return base to hand" ability when used on your own base, effectly allowing for a way to get multiple uses of the champions primary ability during the same turn.

 
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Keith Jones
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Are there any cards in the base set that actually let you untap a champion? I don't recall seeing any.
 
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Martin
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keithjones wrote:
Are there any cards in the base set that actually let you untap a champion? I don't recall seeing any.

Yes those card(s) exist.

Prepare target champion = Untap target champion
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Martin
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AJEddy wrote:
2. No. Allied abilities are available immediately once the card is allied. Timing its effect is up to the player, but in the case of champions, they do not need to be tapped. Nor is the ally ability "gone" once the champion is tapped, ie. if you tap a champion and then play an ally, the ability still triggers.

As written in the rulebook, if a champion is expanded(tapped) the guard status is lost.

Right now it has no effect ingame but the game designer told that future expansions could be released which let you expand an enemy champion during your turn.
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Julio Anderson Nunes
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keithjones wrote:
Are there any cards in the base set that actually let you untap a champion? I don't recall seeing any.
The base set has the Rally the Troops card that prepare (untap) a champion
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Crazed Survivor
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A card in the campaign deck will make your champions come into play expanded, meaning they cannot protect you and you cannot use their primary ability. But you can still trigger their ally abilities.
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Chad Edmunds
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Roger the Alien wrote:
AJEddy wrote:
2. No. Allied abilities are available immediately once the card is allied. Timing its effect is up to the player, but in the case of champions, they do not need to be tapped. Nor is the ally ability "gone" once the champion is tapped, ie. if you tap a champion and then play an ally, the ability still triggers.

As written in the rulebook, if a champion is expanded(tapped) the guard status is lost.


I could not find that in the rule book. I did find this:


Some Champions are guards. Guards have a black defense shield with word “Guard” above it. Guards that are prepared protect you and your other Champions. While you have a prepared guard in play, you may not be attacked, and your non-guard Champions may not be attacked or targeted by an opponent until all of your guards are stunned.

While it does explicitly state that prepared guards provide protection (in several places in the rules, in fact), it doesn't state that tapped guards do not. And while it is very reasonable to draw implicitly from this that tapped guards do not provide protection (in fact that is exactly how I would read it, if it were not for the last part), the last part - in bold - is very clear that all guards are to be stunned in order to attack a player or other champion. A poorly written sentence in that the mention of prepared guard is made superfluous by the fact all guards must be stunned.

It is like saying while the light is red you may not proceed until all the lights are turned off.

Silly.
 
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Martin
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This was already discussed at kickstarter and I made a research, it was also discussed here:

For further clarification:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1658345/expending-champion-...
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Runeshade

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AJEddy wrote:
Roger the Alien wrote:
AJEddy wrote:
2. No. Allied abilities are available immediately once the card is allied. Timing its effect is up to the player, but in the case of champions, they do not need to be tapped. Nor is the ally ability "gone" once the champion is tapped, ie. if you tap a champion and then play an ally, the ability still triggers.

As written in the rulebook, if a champion is expanded(tapped) the guard status is lost.


I could not find that in the rule book. I did find this:


Some Champions are guards. Guards have a black defense shield with word “Guard” above it. Guards that are prepared protect you and your other Champions. While you have a prepared guard in play, you may not be attacked, and your non-guard Champions may not be attacked or targeted by an opponent until all of your guards are stunned.

While it does explicitly state that prepared guards provide protection (in several places in the rules, in fact), it doesn't state that tapped guards do not. And while it is very reasonable to draw implicitly from this that tapped guards do not provide protection (in fact that is exactly how I would read it, if it were not for the last part), the last part - in bold - is very clear that all guards are to be stunned in order to attack a player or other champion. A poorly written sentence in that the mention of prepared guard is made superfluous by the fact all guards must be stunned.

It is like saying while the light is red you may not proceed until all the lights are turned off.

Silly.


"Guards that are prepared protect you and your other champions. While you have a prepared guard in play you may not be attacked, and your non-guard Champions may not be attacked or targeted by an opponent until all of your guards are stunned."

The wording isn't perfect, but it is still clear. You have to stun any prepared guards first. Once you stun/eliminate any prepared guards, you can attack anything you want, even if the opponent had an expended guard in play as well. After eliminating the prepared guard(s), the opponent will no longer have a prepared guard in play, full stop. The rest of the rule sentence does not apply.
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Chad Edmunds
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Runeshade wrote:
AJEddy wrote:
Roger the Alien wrote:
AJEddy wrote:
2. No. Allied abilities are available immediately once the card is allied. Timing its effect is up to the player, but in the case of champions, they do not need to be tapped. Nor is the ally ability "gone" once the champion is tapped, ie. if you tap a champion and then play an ally, the ability still triggers.

As written in the rulebook, if a champion is expanded(tapped) the guard status is lost.


I could not find that in the rule book. I did find this:


Some Champions are guards. Guards have a black defense shield with word “Guard” above it. Guards that are prepared protect you and your other Champions. While you have a prepared guard in play, you may not be attacked, and your non-guard Champions may not be attacked or targeted by an opponent until all of your guards are stunned.

While it does explicitly state that prepared guards provide protection (in several places in the rules, in fact), it doesn't state that tapped guards do not. And while it is very reasonable to draw implicitly from this that tapped guards do not provide protection (in fact that is exactly how I would read it, if it were not for the last part), the last part - in bold - is very clear that all guards are to be stunned in order to attack a player or other champion. A poorly written sentence in that the mention of prepared guard is made superfluous by the fact all guards must be stunned.

It is like saying while the light is red you may not proceed until all the lights are turned off.

Silly.


"Guards that are prepared protect you and your other champions. While you have a prepared guard in play you may not be attacked, and your non-guard Champions may not be attacked or targeted by an opponent until all of your guards are stunned."

The wording isn't perfect, but it is still clear. You have to stun any prepared guards first. Once you stun/eliminate any prepared guards, you can attack anything you want, even if the opponent had an expended guard in play as well. After eliminating the prepared guard(s), the opponent will no longer have a prepared guard in play, full stop. The rest of the rule sentence does not apply.


"Guards that are prepared protect you and your other champions. While you have a prepared guard in play you may not be attacked, and your non-guard Champions may not be attacked or targeted by an opponent until all of your guards are stunned."

I would argue the first part of the rule does not apply, and is superseded by the last part. But, the current situation of the game has this a moot point anyway. I am sure they will clear this up once the game allows for a champion to be expended during an opponent's turn.

 
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Chad Edmunds
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Further clarification from the rulebook (in the Attacking section):

Opponents cannot be attacked if they have a guard Champion in
play -- you’ll need to stun guards first before you can attack the
player they are protecting.


My point is, if my opponent attempts to attack me and I have an expended guard in play (currently only a hypothetical situation), I would insist that they cannot. And I would have the rules to back me up.

No where in the rules does it state that an expended guard does not protect. However, I can point to the rules in 2 spots where they prevent a player from being attacked until all that player's guards are stunned.

While the use of the wording "prepared guard" in the rules is confusing, I think the intention is clear that the expend mechanic was introduced to get more options in the game for manipulating the Expend Abilities. Perhaps in future rulesets of future expansions and/or the campaign, the expend mechanic will provide ways to manipulate the guard status. But the current ruleset does not do that; with respect to protection, Guards act just as Bases do in Star Realms.



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Runeshade

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AJEddy wrote:
Further clarification from the rulebook (in the Attacking section):

Opponents cannot be attacked if they have a guard Champion in
play -- you’ll need to stun guards first before you can attack the
player they are protecting.


My point is, if my opponent attempts to attack me and I have an expended guard in play (currently only a hypothetical situation), I would insist that they cannot. And I would have the rules to back me up.

No where in the rules does it state that an expended guard does not protect. However, I can point to the rules in 2 spots where they prevent a player from being attacked until all that player's guards are stunned.

While the use of the wording "prepared guard" in the rules is confusing, I think the intention is clear that the expend mechanic was introduced to get more options in the game for manipulating the Expend Abilities. Perhaps in future rulesets of future expansions and/or the campaign, the expend mechanic will provide ways to manipulate the guard status. But the current ruleset does not do that; with respect to protection, Guards act just as Bases do in Star Realms.





I'll give this one last go.

"Guards that are prepared protect you and your other Champions."

If you choose to interpret the rules the way you seem to want to, why was this rule not stated as (Guards protect you and your other Champions)? Why bother throwing in the bit about preparedness if it didn't matter?

Even using your rule quote "You'll need to stun guards first before you can attack the player they are protecting", since by the earlier rule only prepared Guards are stated to protect you and your other Champions, the expended guards are not protecting anything.

I admit, the language is sloppy, and they should have stated prepared guards, instead of just guards in the rules you quote, but your reading requires you to explain away the use of the word prepared. By your reading, there is no reason to discuss the preparedness status of the guard at all.
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Luke
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I think "prepared" is probably a poor word choice when putting together the rules.

The important bit from Attacking.

"Opponents cannot be attacked if they have a guard Champion in play"

Says nothing about the prepared status.

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Chad Edmunds
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Look, I wasn't trying to enter a debate on this, but simply answering the OP's question:

Quote:
A champion's guard ability is only in effect when it is untapped, correct?


It says this nowhere in the rules.

BTW, the sentence you are looking for here:

Quote:
If you choose to interpret the rules the way you seem to want to, why was this rule not stated as (Guards protect you and your other Champions)?


is in fact in the rulebook (copied straight from the book without any interpretation):

Notes: Guards protect one player and that player’s Champions.

Again, another sentence in the rulebook that does not say expended guards do not offer protection, nor does it say that only prepared guards offer protection. In fact, no where in the rulebook does it say that only prepared guards offer protection.

So why all the mention of "prepared" in the rulebook at all? Only the designers can answer that. We are left to speculate and infer meaning because the verbiage around the word "prepared" is confusing. However, the rules of the game are very well defined in the what is stated explicitly, which is again (here I am paraphrasing): you must stun all guards before you can attack the player and other non-guard champions. Captured clearly in this rule, which, to me, could not be more explicit and clearly stated:

Opponents cannot be attacked if they have a guard Champion in
play


Note: the above rule was taken straight from the Hero Realms rulebook with absolutely no interpretation, assumption nor inference on my part.
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Martin
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I agree that part in the rulebook is a little bit ambiguous and it was already discussed in the thread I posted above.

I remembered that Rob (game designer) made a statement regarding expanded guards and I went through the kickstarter comments.

For future references (click on the image to enlarge it):

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Chad Edmunds
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And mostly because I love me some pretty pictures, here is another example of game rules not distinguishing between prepared guards and expended guards - in reference to protection - and simply referring to them only as Guards.



Truth...I just wanted an excuse to put up a pic of this little guy because he is so freaking awesome!
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Martin
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Do you sleeve your cards, the edges seem worn.
 
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Chad Edmunds
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Roger the Alien wrote:
Do you sleeve your cards, the edges seem worn.


I have all the cards in sleeves, and wouldn't even handle the promos until they were. They were sleeved before ever played with.

If it is the white in the corners you are seeing, that is due to my bad Microsoft Paint skills, and not actually wear.
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Keith Jones
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Roger the Alien wrote:
I agree that part in the rulebook is a little bit ambiguous and it was already discussed in the thread I posted above.

I remembered that Rob (game designer) made a statement regarding expanded guards and I went through the kickstarter comments.

For future references (click on the image to enlarge it):



Oh hey, that's me!
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