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Subject: The Test start... Now! rss

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Danick Cloutier
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Search and Destroy

AI is Soviet and Player is German.

AI Soviet Rifle is flanked by German Rifle, but german is spent.
AI pulled Order card 20 and will first try to Disengage. Can it? And if it can, where will it move?
We assume that the Control marker in hex I07 is still held by the player. No other Units are on the board for the purpose of this test.


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Kurt R
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Rulebook v55 wrote:
The first priority is trying to decrease the AI's risk, then moving towards a Mission Objective.

Since it's performing a LRM and trying to decrease its risk, I would say it moves into the heavy woods to left of the wood building and adjusts facing so it's not showing its flank (at least to that unit).

LRM priorities:
-- Out of Fire Zone (cannot do this)
-- Into same or higher DM than its current hex (the heavy woods is higher than its starting hex as well as the wood building)

Bonus: Let's say that AI were one hex over to the right in G09 and still facing in the same direction. I would say it would move to hex G10 to be in the German Unit's flank now (as opposed to into the wood building for cover because G10 would be a non-FZ hex).
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enzo622 wrote:
Rulebook v55 wrote:
The first priority is trying to decrease the AI's risk, then moving towards a Mission Objective.

Since it's performing a LRM and trying to decrease its risk, I would say it moves into the heavy woods to left of the wood building and adjusts facing so it's not showing its flank (at least to that unit).

LRM priorities:
-- Out of Fire Zone (cannot do this)
-- Into same or higher DM than its current hex (the heavy woods is higher than its starting hex as well as the wood building)

Bonus: Let's say that AI were one hex over to the right in G09 and still facing in the same direction. I would say it would move to hex G10 to be in the German Unit's flank now (as opposed to into the wood building for cover because G10 would be a non-FZ hex).


I interpreted the card in the same way, assuming the unit at the bottom of the picture is Soviet. If it is a German unit, the AI will not move into short range of it.
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Danick Cloutier
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The Second question of the COH Solo Test(to follow on the mega success of the first one)...

From the Partisans mission. AI plays Soviet.

The Order is the Mission Order: AI farthest from Unit or German Control hex= Move towards.


So, what's the AI move?

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Russ Williams
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maedhros wrote:
The Order is the Mission Order: AI farthest from Unit or German Control hex= Move towards.


So, what's the AI move?

I'll try (although I'm rusty on the system from not playing recently, I hope to return to it soon).

The AI unit on the right side is 3 hexes away from the nearest German unit or German control hex, which is farther than 2 hexes (the other visible AI units' distances from the nearest German Unit or German control hex). So that's the selected unit, and it moves straight toward its target, i.e. toward that German control hex.

(Now someone please tell me what I am doing wrong.)
 
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russ wrote:
maedhros wrote:
The Order is the Mission Order: AI farthest from Unit or German Control hex= Move towards.


So, what's the AI move?

I'll try (although I'm rusty on the system from not playing recently, I hope to return to it soon). :)

The AI unit on the right side is 3 hexes away from the nearest German unit or German control hex, which is farther than 2 hexes (the other visible AI units' distances from the nearest German Unit or German control hex). So that's the selected unit, and it moves straight toward its target, i.e. toward that German control hex.

(Now someone please tell me what I am doing wrong.) :)


Both fresh AI units are 3 hexes away from nearest German uni_t / control hex.

So you have to select which one move by using the movement selection criterias rule (don't remember it, i think it's "select by random" because both are the same type).
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Simo Ahava
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tontione wrote:
russ wrote:
maedhros wrote:
The Order is the Mission Order: AI farthest from Unit or German Control hex= Move towards.


So, what's the AI move?

I'll try (although I'm rusty on the system from not playing recently, I hope to return to it soon).

The AI unit on the right side is 3 hexes away from the nearest German unit or German control hex, which is farther than 2 hexes (the other visible AI units' distances from the nearest German Unit or German control hex). So that's the selected unit, and it moves straight toward its target, i.e. toward that German control hex.

(Now someone please tell me what I am doing wrong.)


Both fresh AI units are 3 hexes away from nearest German uni_t / control hex.

So you have to select which one move by using the movement selection criterias rule (don't remember it, i think it's "select by random" because both are the same type).

Yes - both are unhit and both have the same Cost to Move (1). So a random selection between the AI to the left and the AI to the right.

If the AI to the right is selected, it moves towards its target (Control marker). If the AI to the left is selected, it could move towards either unit (both being 3 hexes away), and since both are unhit and fresh and equidistant to the mission objective (control marker), you'd make a random selection again to choose which German unit the AI moves towards.
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tontione wrote:
Both fresh AI units are 3 hexes away from nearest German uni_t / control hex.


Ah, yes; the skewed perspective of the photo tricked me; I (mis)thought that the upper left fresh AI unit was 2 hexes away from its nearest German unit. :/

Thanks for the correction!

Proposal: make these photos clearer and from directly straight above.
 
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sahava wrote:

If the AI to the left is selected, it could move towards either unit (both being 3 hexes away), and since both are unhit and fresh and equidistant to the mission objective (control marker), you'd make a random selection again to choose which German unit the AI moves towards.


I don't understand "since both are unhit and fresh and equidistant to the mission objective (control marker)" !?

Where does this criteria to select the target of the move towards come from !?
 
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tontione wrote:
sahava wrote:

If the AI to the left is selected, it could move towards either unit (both being 3 hexes away), and since both are unhit and fresh and equidistant to the mission objective (control marker), you'd make a random selection again to choose which German unit the AI moves towards.


I don't understand "since both are unhit and fresh and equidistant to the mission objective (control marker)" !?

Where does this criteria to select the target of the move towards come from !?

Latest version of the rules (v58) downloadable from the Academy Games website.

Chapter 5.2.2, labelled "Target Hierarchy for AI Moves":
Quote:
If the eligible AI can execute a Move order against multiple Units that are equally distant away, then execute the order against:
* the spent Unit, then
• the hit Unit, then
• the Unit closest to a Mission Objective, then
• randomly determine a Unit, by assigning each a number and rolling 1D6.
 
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Doug Click
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AI farthest from Unit or German Control hex= Move towards


The rule states: Farthest from - The AI which is farthest from its closest Target.


AI farthest from Unit or German Control Hex....

So, you are looking at Units and Control Hexes to see which unit is further away...

There are two unspent units. The unit next to the mines is Three Hexes away from the Unit in the top left, three from the vehicle, four from control marker, and six from the unit at the bottom.

The unit to the right is seven from the unit in the top left, seven from the vehicle, Three from control marker, and five from the unit at the bottom.

So, the IA farthest from the Unit or German Control Hex is the AI to the right and is the AI that is activated.

It will then "move towards" the left of the board



I have been playing this wrong for many months now... damn it.
 
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sahava wrote:
tontione wrote:
russ wrote:
maedhros wrote:
The Order is the Mission Order: AI farthest from Unit or German Control hex= Move towards.


So, what's the AI move?

I'll try (although I'm rusty on the system from not playing recently, I hope to return to it soon).

The AI unit on the right side is 3 hexes away from the nearest German unit or German control hex, which is farther than 2 hexes (the other visible AI units' distances from the nearest German Unit or German control hex). So that's the selected unit, and it moves straight toward its target, i.e. toward that German control hex.

(Now someone please tell me what I am doing wrong.)


Both fresh AI units are 3 hexes away from nearest German uni_t / control hex.

So you have to select which one move by using the movement selection criterias rule (don't remember it, i think it's "select by random" because both are the same type).

Yes - both are unhit and both have the same Cost to Move (1). So a random selection between the AI to the left and the AI to the right.

If the AI to the right is selected, it moves towards its target (Control marker). If the AI to the left is selected, it could move towards either unit (both being 3 hexes away), and since both are unhit and fresh and equidistant to the mission objective (control marker), you'd make a random selection again to choose which German unit the AI moves towards.


I agree in all your comments but would not make a random selection. Instead, you should always try to play what's in the best interest of the AI or tactically best choice imo. Not always will this be an easy task but here I would choose the left AI and go straight into the path in the forest, towards both Units. Why?

1. You don't move the AI into a Fire Zone, which you will do with the other (light woods in front of a LMG).
2. The AI will get a much better positional advantage against the Pioneer Unit, as he can wait for him to enter Short Range.
3. You get the chance to destroy the Truck which is a 1 VP and hinder the player to get a VP for getting the Truck through to the other side(if I am not wrong)
 
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Sayburr wrote:

So, the IA farthest from the Unit or German Control Hex is the AI to the right and is the AI that is activated.

It will then "move towards" the left of the board


I don't think that is the correct anwer since both AI's are 3 hexes away from their closest target (Unit/MO). If the right AI was 4 hexes away, then it would be the correct one. But here, as I understand it, the conditions are the same.

As mentioned in the post above I would still not randomly choose a unit but do what's the best/smartest choice and therefore pick the left AI.
 
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strategigeniet wrote:
I agree in all your comments but would not make a random selection. Instead, you should always try to play what's in the best interest of the AI or tactically best choice imo.

Just to be clear: you are agreeing that the rules say to make a random selection, but you are saying that you would ignore the rules (or override them via "Rule 42"?), right?
 
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Oops. Reposting after having a cup of coffee. While the AI to the right is 7 away from a unit, it's also 3 away from a control marker, so the 3 counts, not the 7. The reason for this is in the definition of "closest to/farthest from":

Quote:
Farthest from - The AI which is farthest from its closest Target.


sahava wrote:
If the AI to the right is selected, it moves towards its target (Control marker). If the AI to the left is selected, it could move towards either unit (both being 3 hexes away), and since both are unhit and fresh and equidistant to the mission objective (control marker), you'd make a random selection again to choose which German unit the AI moves towards.

I agree with Simo, except the movement for the AI on the left would be the same, so no need to roll. That is, it would move into the heavy woods regardless of which unit is selected as the target of the move.

BTW, do we know if this order is on a Tactical vs a Command card?
 
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russ wrote:
Proposal: make these photos clearer and from directly straight above.

And could you please put " medium]" after the image number so as to make the picture bigger? Make sure to put a space then the word "medium."

Thanks for doing these. If you really want to burn some brains, do some LOS examples involving hills. gulp
 
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Quote:
Version 58

5.2.2 Target Hierarchy for AI Moves
Movement Orders will direct the AI towards Units or Mission
Objectives. If both a Unit and a Mission Objective are eligible to be
moved towards, the AI will move towards the target listed first in the card's order.


Wouldn't this mean the unit to the left would perform the order?
 
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Sayburr wrote:
Quote:
Version 58

5.2.2 Target Hierarchy for AI Moves
Movement Orders will direct the AI towards Units or Mission
Objectives. If both a Unit and a Mission Objective are eligible to be
moved towards, the AI will move towards the target listed first in the card's order.


Wouldn't this mean the unit to the left would perform the order?

But the rule you're quoting seems to tell how to decide which eligible target a (previously) selected AI will move toward.

It does not seem to tell how to decide which AI will be selected to perform the order.
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Sayburr wrote:
Quote:
Version 58

5.2.2 Target Hierarchy for AI Moves
Movement Orders will direct the AI towards Units or Mission
Objectives. If both a Unit and a Mission Objective are eligible to be
moved towards, the AI will move towards the target listed first in the card's order.


Wouldn't this mean the unit to the left would perform the order?

No, because that is for choosing the Target. Choosing the AI takes precedence over choosing the Target.

You first choose the AI, and if the choice lands on the AI to the right, the only eligible target for them is the Control marker. If the choice lands on the AI to the left, the only eligible target for that AI is the German unit.

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sahava wrote:
Sayburr wrote:
Quote:
Version 58

5.2.2 Target Hierarchy for AI Moves
Movement Orders will direct the AI towards Units or Mission
Objectives. If both a Unit and a Mission Objective are eligible to be
moved towards, the AI will move towards the target listed first in the card's order.


Wouldn't this mean the unit to the left would perform the order?

No, because that is for choosing the Target. Choosing the AI takes precedence over choosing the Target.

You first choose the AI, and if the choice lands on the AI to the right, the only eligible target for them is the Control marker. If the choice lands on the AI to the left, the only eligible target for that AI is the German unit.


Right. And just to illustrate this point, further -- if that rifle unit on the right were two hexes SE towards the corner of the photo (and in the same row), it would then be 3 hexes away from a unit and a control marker. If selected, it would then move towards the unit per the card.
 
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OK, let me see if I can follow the logic since I thought I knew what I was doing but it is obvious I don't.

Mission Order: AI farthest from Unit or German Control hex= Move towards.

Rule Quotes from V58

Rule 5.01 "Spent AI can not execute an Order and are ignored, unless the Order is a Command Order."

So, ignore the spent AI


AI farthest really means "The AI which is farthest from its closest Target." - Rule 5.01 Example 5.

So the AI selection part is AI that has the most space between itself and the Unit closest to itself.

There are two units to look at that are not spent.

The "target" in this case is "Unit or German Control"

AI on the left is three hexes from both Units. The AI to the right is three hexes from the Control Hex. This means both unspent AI are equal distance away from eligible targets.

Rule 5.01 example 6 states 6. If there are multiple eligible AI or Targets equally distant from each other, resolve any ties as described in 5.1 and 5.2.

Since this is a move order, use 5.2

"5.2.1 Eligible AI Move Hierarchy
If more than one eligible AI is equally distant to a Target, then
execute a move order with:
• an Unhit AI, before a hit AI, then
• the AI with the lowest cost to move, then
• randomly determine an AI, by assigning each AI a number and
rolling 1D6."


Neither AI his hit, so move to the next bullet point.

Both AI has the same movement cost so move to the next bullet point ["Cost to Move" is the number in the upper right of the Unit Marker, not the amount of AP it would take to move].

The final bullet point is "true" so roll for which unit is activated.



If the AI on the right is activated, the AI will move towards control marker

If the AI on the left is activated then refer to

5.2.2 Target Hierarchy for AI Moves
Movement Orders will direct the AI towards Units or Mission
Objectives. If both a Unit and a Mission Objective are eligible to be
moved towards, the AI will move towards the target listed first in the
card's order.

If the eligible AI can execute a Move order against multiple Units
that are equally distant away, then execute the order against:
• the spent Unit, then
• the hit Unit, then
• the Unit closest to a Mission Objective, then
• randomly determine a Unit, by assigning each a number and
rolling 1D6.


The target in this case is both Units on the left, the Control marker is more than three hexes away so it is not close enough to be considered. so the first paragraph is ignored.

The second paragraph says Target is "spent Unit", neither unit is spent.... "Hit Unit", neither unit is "hit"... Unit closest to Mission Objective, the vehicle is 7 hexes away from the mission objected and the other Unit is 8 hexes away... so the "target" is the vehicle. Both units are 7 Hexes away, so it is a die roll.

5.3 AI Hex Movement Hierarchy:
Sometimes an AI can execute a Movement Order by moving into
more than one hex. If this is the case:
• the AI will move to a hex that is a fewer number of hexes away
from the Target, then ...



So the unit will move to the left which is the only space it can move to where there is only two hexes away from target.

5.3.1 Facing Hierachy
When moving or pivoting, an AI should always end up facing a
hexside that includes in its Arc of Fire:
• the enemy Unit closest to it, then
• its Mission Objective, then
• the most enemy Units in its LOS.


It will then pivot towards the Hex in-between the two Units to fulfill both Bullet Point One and Three.


It will then make a spent check vs 2 APs (1 Cost to Move + 1 Additional cost to move into Heavy Woods) [I can't see the hexes so can't tell if it would be a backwards move or not]



Now, did I miss anything this time?


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Looks good, Doug, with one exception. I don't see the move to the left into the heavy woods as a backwards move.

And nice catch about the vehicle being the target of the move. Apparently not as they're actually both 7 hexes away.
 
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Sayburr wrote:

The second paragraph says Target is "spent Unit", neither unit is spent.... "Hit Unit", neither unit is "hit"... Unit closest to Mission Objective, the vehicle is 7 hexes away from the mission objected and the other Unit is 8 hexes away... so the "target" is the vehicle.

All nice and correct until this. Granted, the image is a bit poor, but both German units to the left are equidistant from the control marker. Both are three hexes away from Mines or the top AI, and both Mines and top AI are four hexes away from the control marker. So both units are 7 hexes away from the nearest Mission Objective, thus it's a dice roll to select the target.

Also, if the unit did select the vehicle as the target and moved to the hex left of it, it wouldn't be a backwards move as it's moving into one of its three front hexes.

EDIT: Grammar
 
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sahava wrote:
Sayburr wrote:

The second paragraph says Target is "spent Unit", neither unit is spent.... "Hit Unit", neither unit is "hit"... Unit closest to Mission Objective, the vehicle is 7 hexes away from the mission objected and the other Unit is 8 hexes away... so the "target" is the vehicle.

All nice and correct until this. Granted, the image is a bit poor, but both German units to the left are equidistant from the control marker. Both are three hexes away from Mines or the top AI, and both Mines and top AI are four hexes away from the control marker. So both units are 7 hexes away from the nearest Mission Objective, thus it's a dice roll to select the target.

Also, if the unit did select the vehicle as the target and moved to the hex left of it, it wouldn't be a backwards move as it's moving into one of its three front hexes.

EDIT: Grammar


I was having trouble seeing the hexes... but the logic is sound with the exception of where the hexes are at and the count.

I will fix the post so it will not confuse others...
 
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here is another picture.
You can also click on it.
Quality is not the best I know....

This is not a Command Order.

Nice to see everyone takes on this AI order!
 
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