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Subject: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players issue rss

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Steve
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Ok. I'm going to bring this up. What we really need is an official ruling from someone in charge on this one, I feel like. I can see it both ways, don't get me wrong here. Right now it seems that all modders are leaning toward the stingier interpretation here.

I post this because I feel that this is reoccurring ambiguity in the geekmodding and my fellow geekmodders. Any pictures of people playing or game situations is rejected by my fellow geekmodders if there are, say, more than 2 or 3 of those pictures of people playing in that same gallery already. I just saw a very pleasant picture with a descriptive nice humorous caption of someone's wife or friend playing Carc. The picture was not outstanding or artistic but it was reasonably taken and I chuckled, and the woman seemed to be very happy and having a great time. I approved it, it was rejected. This happens all the time.

Current geekmodder norms seem to say that unless there is something completely hilarious or extraordinary about pics of a particular board or picture of players it must rejected if there are already more than a few pictures already existing in that gallery. Is this what the people who run the geek want? I honestly do not know--there is some ambiguity here from the following two parts of the geekmodding guidelines. These two directives conflict, in my mind:

Reasons not to reject line:

* The game already has enough images (unless this image submitted is very similar to one already in the gallery).


Ok. So is a picture of a different group or single person playing the game, or a board situation with an appropriately descriptive caption, "very similar" to others in the gallery? So should we consider pictures of people playing, even if they are different people with different captions, etc, different pictures to accept or too similar pictures to reject? Or is rejecting on those grounds rejecting it because "the game already has enough images" and therefore the wrong reasoning

A really clear ruling here would help me when geekmodding. What does the ownership of the site want? Help!
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James Davis
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
Good luck getting a clear ruling, ive been asking for some higher guidance for over 5 months now for counter sheets, foriegn language covers, screenshots, homemade versions etc. Still nothing and I expect that to continue.
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Can you post it here from your mod history so we can discuss it?
 
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Patrik Kruse
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garysax wrote:
Ok. So is a picture of a different group or single person playing the game, or a board situation with an appropriately descriptive caption, "very similar" to others in the gallery? So should we consider pictures of people playing, even if they are different people with different captions, etc, different pictures to accept or too similar pictures to reject? Or is rejecting on those grounds rejecting it because "the game already has enough images" and therefore the wrong reasoning

A really clear ruling here would help me when geekmodding. What does the ownership of the site want? Help!


What do the users of the site think?

I can say what I think. I am interested in games, but I am really not interested in pictures of lots of strangers sitting around a table and playing the game. It is as interesting as strangers pictures from their last visit to Paris... (And I love Paris!)

A gallery with hundreds of pictures where only a few actually are about the game is just a reason for not viewing that gallery.

If the game already has enough images is not relevant. The only relevant question is if it has enough pictures similar to the one submitted.
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Wendell
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
kruse wrote:
garysax wrote:
Ok. So is a picture of a different group or single person playing the game, or a board situation with an appropriately descriptive caption, "very similar" to others in the gallery? So should we consider pictures of people playing, even if they are different people with different captions, etc, different pictures to accept or too similar pictures to reject? Or is rejecting on those grounds rejecting it because "the game already has enough images" and therefore the wrong reasoning

A really clear ruling here would help me when geekmodding. What does the ownership of the site want? Help!


What do the users of the site think?

I can say what I think. I am interested in games, but I am really not interested in pictures of lots of strangers sitting around a table and playing the game. It is as interesting as someone elses pictures from their last visit to Paris... (And I love Paris!)

A gallery with hundreds of pictures where only a few actually is about the game is just a reason for not viewing that gallery.

If the game already has enough images is not relevant. The only relevant question is if it has enough pictures similar to the one submitted.


Pictures of people playing games ... yawn. snore

Multiple pictures of the game box. snore

Pictures of each and every single component... overkill. shake

Pictures of interesting situations in the game -- cool.
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Throw guilds in to the mix and I imagine modders will get even 'stingier' if you want to call it that.

Personally, I regard the game gallery as a source of information about the game. Putting a couple of pictures of people playing the game in adds information. Filling a gallery with lots of such pictures just adds noise. As does adding the same cover in lots of languages (I dont mind a change of artwork, but change of language is pushing it). Note that this includes English. If there is a picture of the original box in German, why add the one with the English title? If the title doesn't change (e.g. Bohnanza, Coloretto) there is even less justification.

Back to topic - I have only ever added a small handful of 'playing the game' photos and they were all for games where there was not one previously. However, I now intend to add a lot more - to the gallery for my guild.
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Wendell
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
boltongeordie wrote:


Back to topic - I have only ever added a small handful of 'playing the game' photos and they were all for games where there was not one previously. However, I now intend to add a lot more - to the gallery for my guild.


I think galleries like that in guilds are a good idea. I'm just not sure how much info is added about a game by the 6th photo of people playing the game!
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Ken B.
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
A big "NO" if there are already enough shots of people playing the game already. What purpose does such an image serve, unless you know the people in question? I always reject these.

Same goes for "person holding gamebox" or "Oh look my cat is so cute he's in the box lid". The cat because NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR CAT BUT YOU--ditto the sixth picture of a group of people playing the game.


Ask yourself this when you submit a photo--"Is the point of this photo the game? Or is it just incidental to the people that are in the photo?" I've seen so many where it's a shot of a group of people at the table and if you scrunch your eyes you can make out a few game components and a corner of the board or something.

"User galleries". That's what they're there for.
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
Quote:
If there is a picture of the original box in German, why add the one with the English title?


If the game listing is in English, then I would think that would be obvious.



As far as the pictures of people playing, I would take the "too many cooks" opinion. We don't need pictures of every segment of the population playing the game. Yes, it shows that diverse sets of people play games, or help to dispel the notion that only white males between the ages of 18-54 play certain games, but it can be overkill.

/snipped section about n00bs (heh) mining for GeekGold because they're told to submit pictures. Draw your own conclusions.

While we're discussing modding pics, I'm going to lay it on the line and say that I'm tired of seeing vote/gold-whoring (for lack of a better term) for "here's a hot girl on her 4th turn of [game]" and then "here's a different angle of hot girl on her 7th turn of [game]".

Yes, it's nice that women play games too, and congratulations on having someone of the opposite sex to play with, but don't post identical pictures (of the same game, or the same person) just because you can.

/not bitter


Okay. I've just now looked back at the updated thread and seen that some of my points have been posted between the time I started this post and my eventual submission. Not editing or removing anything. Thanks for reading.

Edit: A point was made about Godzilla in Tide of Iron. I think that cat was out of the bag once Scooby Doo met Mimring and got rewarded for it.
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I'm the one who had submitted the image. I had noticed that towards the end of the game, we always hold up the bag and feel about how many tiles are left. I also noticed that out of ~400 images in the Carc gallery, there was no photo of this being done. Since it's an integral part of game play for us, I thought it would be for others as well, and worth a submission.
Also, since we're really careful with our tiles, we do this gently, so it comes off as pretty funny if you're old enough to know why. I thought people would get a laugh out of it. However I made the caption ambiguous enough to not be too crude for the kids: "demonstrating proper 'how many tiles are left?' procedure"

Here's a small thumbnail of it from my gallery:


First off, as to
Quote:
Carc was incidentally in the picture, way off to the left side of the image
note that the game takes up a good 25% of the photo. I just looked at a few accepted photos that show gamers, and there are plenty that are even less of a % than this. I guess "incidental" is pretty subjective.

As to reasons for rejection:
"Reason: The image was too similar to another image already in the database."
"Reason: The image was irrelevant to the subject."
It's a bit frustrating to read that since out of 400 images, none showed this funny yet common "procedure". Must have been "too similar" and "irrelevant" because there was a game player in it?

I really feel that some mods have a knee-jerk reaction to decline any photo with a living person in it, without really evaluating whether it adds anything new. Maybe this is encouraged by the added incentive to get more GG by rejecting.

Maybe there could be a field submitters could fill out defending why their photo is actually different and relevant, and mods would take that into consideration?
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James Davis
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
There is a pretty good reason to allow foreign box shots and different editions. It makes it much easier to use for your collection image, use in math trades, for others to see what the box looks like etc etc.

Just because it isnt useful for you, doesnt mean its not useful for others.

If I modded like that I would decline every artsy fartsy image that got uploaded, to me they are useful, But I realise that many others enjoy them greatly so I accept them.
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Useful?
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Bobby T
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
I'm the one who had submitted the image. I had noticed that towards the end of the game, we always hold up the bag and feel about how many tiles are left. I also noticed that out of ~400 images in the Carc gallery, there was no photo of this being done. Since it's an integral part of game play for us, I thought it would be for others as well, and worth a submission.
Also, since we're really careful with our tiles, we do this gently, so it comes off as pretty funny if you're old enough to know why. I thought people would get a laugh out of it. However I made the caption ambiguous enough to not be too crude for the kids: "demonstrating proper 'how many tiles are left?' procedure"

Here's a small thumbnail of it from my gallery:


First off, as to
Quote:
Carc was incidentally in the picture, way off to the left side of the image
note that the game takes up a good 25% of the photo. I just looked at a few accepted photos that show gamers, and there are plenty that are even less of a % than this. I guess "incidental" is pretty subjective.

As to reasons for rejection:
"Reason: The image was too similar to another image already in the database."
"Reason: The image was irrelevant to the subject."



It's a bit frustrating to read that since out of 400 images, none showed this funny yet common "procedure". Must have been "too similar" and "irrelevant" because there was a game player in it?

I really feel that some mods have a knee-jerk reaction to decline any photo with a living person in it, without really evaluating whether it adds anything new. Maybe this is encouraged by the added incentive to get more GG by rejecting.

Maybe there could be a field submitters could fill out defending why their photo is actually different and relevant, and mods would take that into consideration?


I remember this pic. I actually geekmodded it. I voted to approve it because it met the geekmod image evaluation guidelines:

Image evaluation guidelines
Please evaluate each picture and accept or reject it based on the criteria given. In particular, the following are not reasons for rejecting an otherwise good image:

Image contains modified components.
Image is only tangentially related to the game (an image of people playing the game, etc).
The game already has enough images (unless this image submitted is very similar to one already in the gallery).

If you find a picture to be exceptional, you can approve it and recommend it (equivalent to giving it a thumbs up).

For comparison, on the left are all pending images from the user who submitted the image in question. On the right are all images in the image gallery of the game in question.

If your vote for approval results in an image getting approved, you will receive 0.01 geekgold. If your vote for rejection results in an image not getting approved, you will receive 0.10 geekgold.

Use your own judgment; if a particularly good picture violates one of the guidelines, it is OK to approve it.


I was surprised to see it declined.

Everyone should remember that us geekmodders don't have the last say on pics. We only vote on it for gg. It is the system that has the final say. But when it comes to voting on a pic, I try to follow these guidelines. Just my 2 gg cents.

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garysax wrote:


Reasons not to reject line:

* The game already has enough images (unless this image submitted is very similar to one already in the gallery).


A really clear ruling here would help me when geekmodding. What does the ownership of the site want? Help!


I believe this is the clear ruling of the ownership of the site. It's just not always followed by the mods.
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
boltongeordie wrote:




Useful?

As a montage: yes! I'd love to approve it and dump all but one of the individual images.

I agree with "moving" playing pictures to guilds, and most of the comments in this thread. Despite a surprising (to me) amount of image tagging, finding a shot of all the standard components included in a game is nigh hopeless for any game where users start taking photos of individual components, much less modified components.

Maybe this is a solution: since any article can now be approved for GG, how about buying guides for games? These articles would collect the most relevant pictures of the standard game, something like a light, visual review. What do people think about this?
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Tall_Walt wrote:
boltongeordie wrote:
Useful?

As a montage: yes! I'd love to approve it and dump all but one of the individual images.

Why thank you - it offends me that 19 is a prime number so I could not have rows with even numbers of box covers. Quick somebody, load the Japanese version.

Tall_Walt wrote:
Maybe this is a solution: since any article can now be approved for GG, how about buying guides for games? These articles would collect the most relevant pictures of the standard game, something like a light, visual review. What do people think about this?

Sound idea.

Simply including some of the better pictures in a normal review couldn't hurt either.
 
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
JohnnyDollar wrote:

I really feel that some mods have a knee-jerk reaction to decline any photo with a living person in it, without really evaluating whether it adds anything new. Maybe this is encouraged by the added incentive to get more GG by rejecting.


I'm one who rejected it the first time and just rejected it again. Aside from being irrelevant, it's just not funny.
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Quote:
I'm one who rejected it the first time and just rejected it again. Aside from being irrelevant, it's just not funny.

I was curious how consistent the modding system is, so with this very small sample size it does seem pretty consistent. meeple I just thought it would be a fun (and yes, *different*) Carcassonne image that people would enjoy, but I guess I have a weird sense of humour. But I already knew that.
 
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
KenHR wrote:

And seriously, I've seen a couple dozen pics over the past few days get re-submitted immediately after being rejected; they get approved on the second go-round. Like that stupid pic of Godzilla in a Tide of Iron game. So, hey, if someone really wants to get it in the gallery, they'll do it eventually. (And they call modders who reject too many photos greedy....)


Ok, I am the poster of the Godzilla pic. What was sent to me after the first submission was this:

Comments (optional):
Like the concept, and the shot...work it again without the "flash-glare"

Referencing the flash photography style that I used. So I took it as encouragement to try again, this time I used a light tent.

Then I got this reply:
Comments (optional):
advertisement in image
de ja vu..
Same image as declined before.

I figured they didn't like my store logo in the picture, which is understandable, so I removed it. The de ja vu comment was kind of weird, but given the first encouraging response, I just resubmitted it without the logo. Had it been declined then, I would not have submitted again, but it was accepted.

Bottom line is, I really like the game. I thought I was thinking of something original and humorous with the Tomanagi lizard creature from Monsters Menace America, and I took the time to take several pictures for submittal. I'm sorry if someone has thought of it before, but we can't all know the pictorial history of BGG.

As for the pictures in general:
IMHO - I think the current thumbs up system is a good way to moderate the pictures. If a picture is good, it get a bunch of thumbs up. If a picture is bad it doesn't, and it sinks into the vast sea of photo obscurity. Regarding pictures in the listings themselves, maybe it would be good to have a photo archive. Currently there are 36 pages of Settlers of Catan photos. I think that is a lot to go through. If a picture has been hanging around for a year or two without a thumbs up, then maybe it should go in an archive somewhere. That way only the active and fresh pictures get be shown.

Regards,
Ernie
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
Ok, so, what has been confirmed to me in this thread is that the status quo is, in fact, the status quo. Most geekmods don't see any utility in adding any more pictures of people playing or game situations to a gallery with a picture of that already.

To be honest, I already knew that. But what do the guidelines say? What is the letter of the law, as it were, on BGG? It's still completely ambiguous at least to me in terms of that rule. I guess if no one says anything I'm just going to assume that the geekmod status quo is what the leadership wants and I'll start modding that way too.

It certainly makes geekmodding worth a crap load of GG! I won't turn that down.
 
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OK, here is your clear ruling:

For any good image, if there is any doubt regarding how similar it is, err on the side of approving it.
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James Davis
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
boltongeordie wrote:




Useful?


I have to say they are more useful than artsy images chris.

It is very helpful to individual users to have your own box for in the collection screen.

A solution to alot of the problems is still my original idea of putting them into folders. Have the mods click tags that describe them. simple ones like box front, box back, components, people playing etc. Then it gets put in a folder.

It would make it much easier to navigate the bigger image galleries.
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
I think I voted for the same one. I'm new to the whole image modding thing, but my thinking of this is that pictures of women playing games is always a good thing. Gaming tends to be thought of as a guy hobby. Anything we can to to disabuse this notion (like numerous photos of women enjoying games) would be a good thing.

Numerous pictures of various people playing a particular game doesn't add more for me.
 
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
garysax wrote:

Reasons not to reject line:

* The game already has enough images (unless this image submitted is very similar to one already in the gallery).


Here's another one:

* Image is only tangentially related to the game (an image of people playing the game, etc).

I'm only seeing the thumbnail, of course, but I think people should stop making up reasons to reject (seemingly) otherwise fine images like this:



Reasons such as "there are too many images for this game", "the game is not the focal point of the image" [edited for wording], and "it's not funny" are not legitimate reasons to decline an image.

In fact, as far as I'm concerned, the legitimate reasons are spelled out in the Decline checkboxes. If I can't find one of those reasons to decline an image, I pretty much always accept. "Other" is used only for unusual circumstances, not to insert whatever personal standard you happen to go by. You are moderating for the site, not for your own personal gallery, and the site is telling you its standards. Please go by those or don't moderate.

The image moderation page wrote:
Please evaluate each picture and accept or reject it based on the criteria given.
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Re: Official ruling on too many pics of boards or players is
GG is a major reason for modding images for me. I also enjoy previewing the new images that are submitted. However, I have found that if no one else follows the rules, it affects my GG take.

For example, if I accept an image which is perfectly okay due to the BGG guidelines, but it is declined, that deprives me of any GG for that image. Consequently, those who declined the image against the rules get the higher 0.1GG instead of the 0.01GG for an accepted image.

In my view, earning GG by breaking the guidelines is illegitimate.

Now, I also understand that this is a community of gamers and that the modding rules are not commandments, but it'd be nice if images were modded in the spirit of the site's guidelines.

Just a thought.

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