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Subject: Fighting an avatar heuristic rss

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Phil Schmidt
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Woodbridge
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Hello,

Does anyone have a good heuristic for how strong a faith member should be to fight the avatar? We played a game where the avatar just reacted by walking at each hero and 1-shotting them in combat. It was pretty anti-climactic, but there was a hero having only 1 corruption and no upgrades; and the faith probably could've taken an extra round to gear up.

I guess what I'm really asking is; assuming you aren't feeling the time crunch and have some time do spend developing your heroes before summoning an avatar, what's a good number of upgrades and corruption to have on each hero?
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Paul Nojima
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If you see the Sin is gonna go with the strategy to just steamroll your unprepared heroes, move your heroes out of range.

And keep in mind that all reactions the Sin does can only be against the hero who JUST finished their turn. While Sin can move any monster to anywhere, any subsequent attack can ONLY be against the hero who Sin is reacting to.

Kinda sounds like the latter was ignored...
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Phil Schmidt
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Pauljima wrote:
If you see the Sin is gonna go with the strategy to just steamroll your unprepared heroes, move your heroes out of range.

And keep in mind that all reactions the Sin does can only be against the hero who JUST finished their turn. While Sin can move any monster to anywhere, any subsequent attack can ONLY be against the hero who Sin is reacting to.

Kinda sounds like the latter was ignored...


No, we played it right. The sin was sloth, all many heroes were already marked, so running away was not as doable as otherwise. The heroes had super rushed getting objectives done, so the avatar was summoned in such a way that the whole team was out of position and unprepared. It was a trivial matter to jump them all one after another. Up until the arrival of the avatar, the faith were doing so well they could've taken a round or maybe even two to better prepare for the avatar. This was definitely an example of overly rushing objectives.

And unless a freshly spawned hero starts with some corruption, they can't really fight an avatar very well. You really need those boosts. That would be the only thing I haven't double checked but I'm pretty sure you start with zero. Unless you can voluntary take as much corruption as you want before rolling the dice, newly spawned heroes seem to be really vulnerable to an avatar.
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Tomer Mlynarsky
Israel
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So basically, what is a decent amount of attack die you need in order to relatively one shot the Avatar?


Hmm... I know it's not a good idea to do the math this late at night so somebody better double check me since I know I'm probably doing something wrong here.


Well, let's see, the odds of you rolling a fist is 2 out of 6
The odds of rolling a crit is 1 out of 6, which can be a fist and an extra roll.

So all in all, half your dice are likely to hit and you're likely to get an extra hit for every 6th die.

So if we're assuming X is the number of dice you roll, you'll have X\2 hits + X\6 extra hits so a total of 4X\6 hits on average and if you want that equal or higher than 7 you need

4X\6>=7
4X>=42
X>=10.5

So I think if you have 11 and above dice you should be doing well enough against the Avatar on average.


However, I have a hunch I'm missing out on something and hopefully someone will correct me.
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Paul Nojima
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Well, in terms of running away, the Heroes could also just take 1 wound to ignore the effects of the Mark. If they're fresh heroes, they can afford it. If I remember right, Sloth can only mark a Hero if they START a fight, so if the Heroes are bent on gearing up, healing, repenting, and using the satellite to take care of lesser monsters, Avatar shouldn't be able to steamroll like that.

Use of the Metro system is helpful too, end up on the other side of the map and make it impossible for the Avatar to reach you. If Sin reacts and attacks, hey, at least you don't get marked, heh.
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Phil Schmidt
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Pauljima wrote:
Well, in terms of running away, the Heroes could also just take 1 wound to ignore the effects of the Mark. If they're fresh heroes, they can afford it. If I remember right, Sloth can only mark a Hero if they START a fight, so if the Heroes are bent on gearing up, healing, repenting, and using the satellite to take care of lesser monsters, Avatar shouldn't be able to steamroll like that.

Use of the Metro system is helpful too, end up on the other side of the map and make it impossible for the Avatar to reach you. If Sin reacts and attacks, hey, at least you don't get marked, heh.


Uh, yes. I agree. A ton of things were done wrong. And the Sin player got a couple of those burst rolls of death that people complain about. What I really want to know is: what is the general consensus on a minimum/appropriate amount of gearing up before you summon an avatar? The sin player does get stronger as you wait, but you have to be able to fight big mean things too. I'd like a heuristic to tell new players. Should all characters have 1-2 combat upgrades and 4-5 corruption for example? Or is 3 corruption good enough? We haven't really figured it out because the Avatar always seems to just destroy anyone they fight.
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Paul Nojima
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I don't think there's a single answer for this... I've played 3 times as Sin and I've had my avatar killed by someone with no upgrades but high corruption. It also depends on what character you're fighting with... Bruisers have a HUGE advantage in a fight.

I'll also add that I did have Rocco almost kill my Avatar simply by sniping... almost. He sniped me with his two auto-hits when doing ranged attacks, rolled his dice along with voluntary corruption. He ended up with 6 hits. If he had one more corruption, he'd have had the auto-hit which would've killed my avatar in the street. He was also over 3 spaces away so my avatar couldn't do anything in response for the miss. =P

I don't think it's about how many upgrades, but what upgrades you take. Some benefit you if you already have ranged, some are great with the extra dice in a melee fight (Ice Blade), etc.

In my experience, most attacks on the Avatar have been kamikaze attacks... expecting to die because I would roll something like 12-14 dice because of pentagrams, summoned acolytes, and monsters already in the district with me. =) In the end, all that usually matters is that the heroes get the 7 requisite hits to kill the big guy.
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Andreas Kortegaard
Denmark
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Explosions only hit again half the time, so not really worth that much.

On average a die is worth 0,6 hits approximately, by my paper math.

spoiler tag to hide the boredom
Spoiler (click to reveal)

counting tree with a depth of 3:
M=miss, H=hit, C=crit
M (0 hits) = 108/216
H (1 hit) = 72/216
CM (1 hit) = 18/216
CH = (2 hits) = 12/216
CCM = (2 hits) = 3/216
CCH = (3 hits) = 2/216
CCC = (3 hits) = 1/216

Combine the same outcome values and divide it by 216, then multiply hit value by decimal number

0 hits: (108/216)*0 = (value 0)
1 hit: ((72+18)/216)*1 = (value 0,42)
2 hits: ((12+3)/216)*2 = (value 0,14)
3 hits ((2+1)/216)*3 = (value 0,04)

Add together (0,42+0,14+0,04) = 0,6



So by pure dice you require 12 to have a slightly better than 50% shot. Or 5 dice give you about 50% chance of 3 hits.

It's a pretty ungodly amount of dice to generate, so the magic trick seems to be the corruption track. level 6 gives you 2 dice and 3 auto hits, if you're not suffering from any relevant wounds. From there you only need 5 dice from other sources to have a slightly better than even shot at the avatar.
at level 7 with the possible 4 sure hits and 2 dice, only 3 more dice give you a coin-flip. That's a majority of the characters, no gear needed.

I think it's a design decision to balance it, so a fighting chance against the avatar requires you to be on the brink.

edit: The math is slightly off. 5 dice has a 50% chance of generating 3 hits without counting explosions. The formula sans explosions is x*2-1, where x is needed hits, and the result is needed dice to get a 50% chance to succeed. but explosions are quite negligible when doing these probabilities, so the 5 for 3 stands as a heuristic.

edit2: for extra spoilery brackets
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