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Subject: Merit to an extra set's materials rss

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Jeremy Glassman
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Hey y'all,

So I just bought an extra copy of the game (after owning it for about 4 years+ now). The extra copy was so I can have a HoG color scheme for the rats/roaches and spider/centipede.

However, I was wondering if there was any merit to doubling up some items in the search deck, or perhaps adding more of the same cave tile, etc. What do you think the balancing issues of this would be?

Perhaps only select items would be duplicated? Could be neat.
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Andreas Brueckner
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I used the extra card material to build inofficial extensions. For this an extra set is useful.
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Jeremy Glassman
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I should definitely do that! Are you able to print on the cards/over the tiles?

Please share your methods!
 
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Jeff Dougan
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throwing8smokes wrote:
I should definitely do that! Are you able to print on the cards/over the tiles?

Please share your methods!


What often happens in a situation like that is that folks will photoshop//print what they want the front to look like, then put it in a sleeve along with a regular card. Only works if you sleeve everything.
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Jeremy Glassman
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Thanks for the tip! Will definitely do that. And as for extra tiles: I'm sure just laying the printed piece of paper over the rule would suffice.
 
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Teeka
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throwing8smokes wrote:
The extra copy was so I can have a HoG color scheme for the rats/roaches and spider/centipede.

That's really cool. cool Wish I had the spare money to do stuff like that.

throwing8smokes wrote:
However, I was wondering if there was any merit to doubling up some items in the search deck, or perhaps adding more of the same cave tile, etc. What do you think the balancing issues of this would be?

My first thought is that the one-off effects like Tricks, Fortunes and Treacheries could very well be duplicated.
It would certainly make the deck more 'active', if you will.

Party items I think shouldn't be added because they are supposed to be unique (except for Grape).
Also, there's a couple of equipment cards that are really good. You might break the game if you end up with multiples in you team's possession.

Doubling up on the ability cards might be fun too, but then I think you'd need to house rule a limit to the amount of cards any mouse can have.

I'm not sure what you mean by adding tiles. For making your own chapters? Or making existing chapters longer?
 
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Jeremy Glassman
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Teeka wrote:

My first thought is that the one-off effects like Tricks, Fortunes and Treacheries could very well be duplicated.
It would certainly make the deck more 'active', if you will.


Yeah - I wonder if that would make the game too good?

Teeka wrote:

Party items I think shouldn't be added because they are supposed to be unique (except for Grape).
Also, there's a couple of equipment cards that are really good. You might break the game if you end up with multiples in you team's possession.


Yeah, I've actually entirely removed party items from the deck and they can only be acquired by the mice through a story search. However, I leave the grapes in, so I think I might double those up. (I think there's too few grapes as it is). Also, I wonder what other items are 'basic' enough to add multiples of. Obv. I wouldn't add multiples of say clockwork grenade. But mebbe another tooth-pick/leather breastplate? I wonder your thoughts.

Teeka wrote:

Doubling up on the ability cards might be fun too, but then I think you'd need to house rule a limit to the amount of cards any mouse can have.


That's awesome! I was perhaps thinking about the abilities that multiple mice could get. This way of Colin takes an ability that Nez wants, Nez could still take it.
Would that break the game?

Teeka wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by adding tiles. For making your own chapters? Or making existing chapters longer?


Specifically for custom scenarios, yeah. I could scan a tile, edit/create a new design on photoshop, print out the piece of paper, and overlay it on the tile. This way I can use all the existing tiles, while also using custom tiles. However, I doubt I would need the actually tiles for these, as I could just use the paper. Also, if I just wanted to use the tiles for that reason, I don't think I would be every using all the tiles for SR & DWT at once, so I could always use a spare tile for the heft.
I guess the only reason would be so I could completely print over the extra tiles and make an actual custom set of tiles...hmmm
 
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N F
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Greenwood
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You could mix in only the negative cards into the search deck. That would make things pretty miserable. Ha!

In base M&M my wife would hardly let us search because she hated the negative cards so much. I removed abduction from the game because I actually wanted to see some of the items now and again. lol We search a lot in DT though.
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Teeka
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throwing8smokes wrote:
Teeka wrote:
My first thought is that the one-off effects like Tricks, Fortunes and Treacheries could very well be duplicated.
It would certainly make the deck more 'active', if you will.

Yeah - I wonder if that would make the game too good?

I don't think so. Those cards don't usually get drawn much anyway.

throwing8smokes wrote:
I wonder what other items are 'basic' enough to add multiples of. Obv. I wouldn't add multiples of say clockwork grenade. But mebbe another tooth-pick/leather breastplate? I wonder your thoughts.
Indeed, maybe just the simple ones that don't add a lot of dice or effects.

throwing8smokes wrote:
I was perhaps thinking about the abilities that multiple mice could get. This way of Colin takes an ability that Nez wants, Nez could still take it.
Would that break the game?

Like I said, you'd really need some houserule to limit the total available pool of abilities. Or maybe not double the really good ones, just like with the search deck.

I can't really say for certain what would break the game and what wouldn't... I mean, DT added a whole bunch of cards, some of which are really good, and it didn't break anything either. Just try it all out, I say!
 
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Jeremy Glassman
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Decided which items I am going to add in. Any comments? Perhaps this would be unbalanched :/ If anyone has a better idea as to the power-level of certain items, please let me know if this will cause the mice to be overpowered.

Just a brief background: I implemented a house rule that allows mice to keep ALL the equipment they find over an adventure. I removed a total of 30 cards from the search deck. 14 are never added back and can only be gathered from a special search (like party items, etc.). 16 items are itms like Fishscale armor, Whiskerforth elixer, clockwork grenade etc. 2 items are added to the deck over a total of 8 chapters at the beginning of each chapter.

(x1) grape
(x1) Leather Breastplate
(x1) throwing knives
(x1) button shield
(x1) acorn helmet
(x1) toothpick
(x2) Dagger
(x1) Heroic sacrifice (trick)
(x1) Intense cowering (trick)
(x2) They know we're here (treachery)
(x1) Shriek Bug (treachery

My rational were these were pretty common/basic items that you would theoretically find multiples of in a castle (ex. like a toothpick or acorn), and it wouldn't over-power the mice too much if they kept one of these from chapter-to-chapter. Treachery were added so it wouldn't be too easy.
Let me know what you think! For a more detailed numbers analysis continue below:

Normal

Ok so just some numbers. A normal S&R (sorrow & remembrance) search deck has 61. BASE
With 4 fortunes, that's ~7% chance of drawing a fortune
With 7 treacheries, that's ~11% chance of drawing a treachery
With 7 tricks, that's ~11% chance of drawing a trick

If I kept the search deck at 31 w/o adding duplicate cards:
I've removed 4 treacheries (moldy cheese, poison cheese, abduction, stolen cheese), that's ~13% chance of drawing a treachery (+2% from base)
3 Fortunes (I've removed rest spot), that's ~10% (+3% from base game)
7 tricks, ~23% chance of drawing (+16% from base game)
3 treacheries (removed 4), ~10% (-1% from base game)

After I add in the 13 duplicate cards search deck (see above)= 44 cards:
3 fortunes, ~7% chance (equal to base)
6 treacheries, ~14% chance (+3% from base)
9 tricks, ~20% chance (+9% from base)
(Effectively these addition makes the game more difficult because there is a higher chance of drawing treacheries (the ones that make the game more fun/difficult. NOT bad like Abduction, etc.), but more fun because of the increased rate to draw a trick. This is good b/c the game needs to be more difficult if Mice get to keep their equipment from chapter-to-chapter)

By Chapter 9: (when all 16 extra cards have been added to S&R) = 60 cards
6 treacheries, 10% chance (-1% from base but doubtful all search cards will be in the deck)
9 tricks, 15% chance (+4% from base)
3 Fortunes, 5% chance (-2% from base), pretty equal.

So all in all it seems added these duplicates don't really affect the ratio's of drawing that were in the base game, except for tricks but only by +4% by chapter 9.

Heart of Glorm
Should the duplicate cards be removed for Heart of Glorm?
Let's find out!
There's 9 search cards you can add from Heart of Glorm. (-pack rat, -arrow of truth, -heartwarm potion) Since it's so few, it doesn't matter for balancing reasons if they are progressively added, because you have such a small chance of drawing them.

BASE
61 cards in S&R + 9 in HoG = 70 cards.
5 fortunes, ~7% chance of drawing.
8 treacheries, ~11% chance.
8 tricks, ~11% chance.

If we add ALL HoG cards in the beginning to our deck with duplicates:
60 cards + 9 cards = 69 cards at the beginning of HoG.
4 fortunes, ~6% (-1% from base)
7 treacheries, ~10% (-1% from base)
10 tricks, ~14% (+3% from base)

So all in all not that big of a change, and this can work for HoG.

DownWood Tales
DownWood Tales has 51 additional cards into Mice and Mystics. Assuming 3 new fortunes, 3 new tricks, 3 new treacheries.

BASE Vanilla deck = 70 (S&R + HoG) + 51 = 121 cards.
8 fortunes, ~7% chance of drawing.
11 treacheries, ~9% chance of drawing.
11 tricks, ~9% chance of drawing.
9 HoG cards, ~7% chance of drawing a HoG card
51 DWT cards, ~40% chance of drawing a DWT card.
70 S&R cards, ~58% chance of drawing a S&R card

S&R deck edited deck (69 cards) + DWT edited deck (23 cards) = 92
(I've removed party items and special items that are story-specific, as well as specialty magic items and runes that should be only bought in the shop.
7 fortunes, ~7% chance
10 treacheries, ~9% chance
13 tricks, ~14%
~25% of drawing a DWT card
~10% of drawing a HoG card
~65% of drawing a S&R card

Well let's take a look at the ratio's if I DON'T use the 13 duplicates in the beginning = 79 cards

.... Ok I think I'm over-complicating this game. No thanks, I won't add any duplicate cards, maybe a grape or two or something.
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Jeremy Glassman
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To make it much easier:

I only decided to add-in 5 items.

(x1) Learher Breastplate (you can never have enough)
(x1) Acorn Helmet (bread and butter, great basic item, not too good)
(x1) Button Shield (just a fun item, once again not too goo)
(x1) Dagger (to make Knofe Strike a worthwhile ability (easier to find a dagger)
(x1) Throwing Daggers (same as above dagger)

Filch's ability 'Knife Strike' works with Throwing Daggers right?

 
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