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Subject: Heracles....OP rss

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Francis Rivest
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On my first game with Heracles i chose a strategy which we haven't found a counter yet...which I think is a problem. Perhaps my ruling is wrong or some of you guys can help me to counter this.

If you start with Heracles, you can easily cut yourself out from the oponnent using domes (like, completely, on your first turn). You move, build a block, then dome yourself in a corner with 2 or more spaces, with your built block of course. Against A LOT (dare i say majority) of gods and characters, this will only make a race to the top which you'll win since you started.

Even if you don't start, this strat is pretty viable you just have to dome yourself in a corner and dome the block the opponent built which is very easy if the opponent doesn't think about it, which he will rarely do on a first turn..against a hero.

EDIT : all of this is made on the first turn of play. So not a lot of counter available exept placement, but even there it is very difficult.

Am I not seeing something here?
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Mickey
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Probably a one-shot strategy. All gods/heroes have a winning strategy if left alone without counter moves.
 
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Francis Rivest
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Im talking here about a strat that assures you a win vs most gods....on the first turn.
 
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Dapperghast Meowregard
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I'd have to try it, but you can only build on spaces adjacent to your workers, so I assume the best counter is just to not let Heracles get into a position where that's an option.
 
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Francis Rivest
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I suggest you chek it out, i tried a couple of placements and there were pretty much always a way he could do it..
 
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Mickey
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if opponent places his workers next to yours does it still work ?
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Alison Mandible
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Dapperghast wrote:
I'd have to try it, but you can only build on spaces adjacent to your workers, so I assume the best counter is just to not let Heracles get into a position where that's an option.


If Heracles places here:

.....
.X...
.....
...X.
.....

is there a second-player placement that keeps Heracles from doing this on turn 1? I can't find one.
 
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Francis Rivest
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Yeah since you can move from him and dome yourself away. But i might be wrong their might always be an optimal placement to counter this...but it's still pretty though espacially for a new player.

Ill continue to test this tomorrow and find out if there really is a placement thats uncounterable.
 
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Francis Rivest
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I cant find a solution either since both pawns can make walls you can go in the 4 corners and wall yourself in. That may be a uncounterable position...but im no doctor mathematician.
 
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Alison Mandible
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grasa_total wrote:
Dapperghast wrote:
I'd have to try it, but you can only build on spaces adjacent to your workers, so I assume the best counter is just to not let Heracles get into a position where that's an option.


If Heracles places here:

.....
.X...
.....
...X.
.....

is there a second-player placement that keeps Heracles from doing this on turn 1? I can't find one.


In fact, I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Consider this.

Unless there's an opponent on one of these six spaces:

@@@..
@@@..
.....
.....
.....

then Heracles can start by moving up, building in the corner and placing four domes:

#XO..
OOO..
.....
.....
.....

and win. By the same argument, there has to be an opponent on one of these six spaces:

@@...
@@...
@@...
.....
.....

and likewise in the lower right corner for the second Heracles worker. So the opponent has to place one worker on an A space and one on a B space in this diagram:

AA...
A....
.....
....B
...BB

However, Heracles can beat that too. If the upper left opponent is in either of the two A spaces on the leftmost column, then Heracles does this:

AO#O.
AOXO.
.OOO.
.....
.....

and wins. If the opponent takes the third A space, Heracles can win by moving the upper left worker down and making the cage there.

Same argument for the B spaces.

Unless I've made a mistake (very possible!) this seems to demonstrate that Heracles can't lose as the first player, except against a god whose power prevents this (like Athena) or allows for an alternate win in fewer turns if left undisturbed (like Pan).
 
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Francis Rivest
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I think you might be right. I suggest Heracles can't use his power until their are 12 blocs or domes on play. 12...only for thematic purposes.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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About half of the other powers can counter this strategy by building faster, dropping in a dome/whirlpool (Polyphemus, Charybdis), interfering with the worker (Dionysus, Siren, Hypnus or Aeolus), needing fewer blocks to win (Pan, Bellerophon, Eros) or keeping critical information behind a shield.

What really prevents this from working are the setup rules: if you pick Heracles as your power, then the other player chooses herself to be the start player.
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Francis Rivest
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Yeah your right but still seems pretty strong.. i mean in most matchups if your the one choosing which of the 2 characters you pick and you don't pick Heracles..you just lost.

If i chose the gods and chose Heracles and a God that's strong against him but that doesn't counter the strat, you would be force to pick Heracles and i would make myself start, you couldn't use the strat and i would have the advantage with the advantageous god.
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Alexandre Trentini
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grasa_total wrote:
grasa_total wrote:
Dapperghast wrote:
I'd have to try it, but you can only build on spaces adjacent to your workers, so I assume the best counter is just to not let Heracles get into a position where that's an option.


If Heracles places here:

.....
.X...
.....
...X.
.....

is there a second-player placement that keeps Heracles from doing this on turn 1? I can't find one.


In fact, I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Consider this.

Unless there's an opponent on one of these six spaces:

@@@..
@@@..
.....
.....
.....

then Heracles can start by moving up, building in the corner and placing four domes:

#XO..
OOO..
.....
.....
.....

and win. By the same argument, there has to be an opponent on one of these six spaces:

@@...
@@...
@@...
.....
.....

and likewise in the lower right corner for the second Heracles worker. So the opponent has to place one worker on an A space and one on a B space in this diagram:

AA...
A....
.....
....B
...BB

However, Heracles can beat that too. If the upper left opponent is in either of the two A spaces on the leftmost column, then Heracles does this:

AO#O.
AOXO.
.OOO.
.....
.....

and wins. If the opponent takes the third A space, Heracles can win by moving the upper left worker down and making the cage there.

Same argument for the B spaces.

Unless I've made a mistake (very possible!) this seems to demonstrate that Heracles can't lose as the first player, except against a god whose power prevents this (like Athena) or allows for an alternate win in fewer turns if left undisturbed (like Pan).


I read the rules for his placement and I'm pretty sure he cannot build domes on the ground. It states: End of Your Turn: Once, both
your Workers build any number
of domes (even zero) at any level.

The (even zero) statement is that you can build 0 domes (though it doesn't seem very useful), but I didn't find anything in this text that states that he can build on the ground.
 
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Ponder Stibbons
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alepsycho wrote:
grasa_total wrote:
grasa_total wrote:
Dapperghast wrote:
I read the rules for his placement and I'm pretty sure he cannot build domes on the ground. It states: End of Your Turn: Once, both
your Workers build any number
of domes (even zero) at any level.

The (even zero) statement is that you can build 0 domes (though it doesn't seem very useful), but I didn't find anything in this text that states that he can build on the ground.

if the iconography on the gods reference in the Files section is the same as on the card, then the card depicts a dome on ground level as an example among other dome options.

the issue here seems to be the speed at which an experienced player can defeat a novice. therefore, ban the card from tournament play. done. in any other situation you could just throw some popcorn at the jerk and move on to other gods.
 
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Niko
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alepsycho wrote:
I read the rules for his placement and I'm pretty sure he cannot build domes on the ground. It states: End of Your Turn: Once, both
your Workers build any number
of domes (even zero) at any level.

The (even zero) statement is that you can build 0 domes (though it doesn't seem very useful), but I didn't find anything in this text that states that he can build on the ground.
What interpretation of "any level" doesn't include "ground level"?
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Chris Laudermilk
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
alepsycho wrote:
I read the rules for his placement and I'm pretty sure he cannot build domes on the ground. It states: End of Your Turn: Once, both
your Workers build any number
of domes (even zero) at any level.

The (even zero) statement is that you can build 0 domes (though it doesn't seem very useful), but I didn't find anything in this text that states that he can build on the ground.
What interpretation of "any level" doesn't include "ground level"?

In addition to that, the iconography explicitly shows a dome on the ground level.
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Alison Mandible
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mlvanbie wrote:
About half of the other powers can counter this strategy by building faster, dropping in a dome/whirlpool (Polyphemus, Charybdis), interfering with the worker (Dionysus, Siren or Aeolus), needing fewer blocks to win (Pan, Bellerophon, Eros) or keeping critical information behind a shield.


I don't believe Dionysus can interfere; the moves Heracles will be making inside the closed-off area are the only possible ones for that worker (there are two empty spaces; each turn you move to the other one, then build on the one you just came from) so Dionysus can't throw him off track.

Still, point taken about how there are more than a few powers who can stop this strategy.

Quote:
What really prevents this from working are the setup rules: if you pick Heracles as your power, then the other player chooses herself to be the start player.


At which point the Heracles player places builders second, right? That seems almost as good for Heracles as having the first move. Maybe no longer a guaranteed win, but pretty good?

I am not sure how to ask this gently, but... Did this issue with Heracles come up in development and get deemed okay? If so, are there other characters who have a 100% win against half the cast if their opponent picks the wrong player order? That's a little more intensity in the pre-game setup decisions than I usually like, but I'm willing to roll with it. Just curious how much of that to expect.

I'm also not going to kick and scream if development overlooked this; I love asymmetric games and occasional brokenness goes with the territory.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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alepsycho wrote:
I read the rules for his placement and I'm pretty sure he cannot build domes on the ground. It states: End of Your Turn: Once, both
your Workers build any number
of domes (even zero) at any level.

The (even zero) statement is that you can build 0 domes (though it doesn't seem very useful), but I didn't find anything in this text that states that he can build on the ground.


Yes, Heracles can build domes at ground level (and often does). However, you are right about it being weird that he would use his power to do nothing and people are right that he is stronger than intended. During rules layout he switched from being a 'Your Build' to 'End of Turn' power; it was noticed but not corrected.

Correct Heracles wrote:
Your Build: Once, instead of building normally both your Workers build any number of domes (even zero) at any level.


Now you can play with Heracles like he was intended and first-play isolation won't win against any power.
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Alexandre Trentini
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Rumbelow wrote:
alepsycho wrote:
grasa_total wrote:
grasa_total wrote:
Dapperghast wrote:
I read the rules for his placement and I'm pretty sure he cannot build domes on the ground. It states: End of Your Turn: Once, both
your Workers build any number
of domes (even zero) at any level.

The (even zero) statement is that you can build 0 domes (though it doesn't seem very useful), but I didn't find anything in this text that states that he can build on the ground.

if the iconography on the gods reference in the Files section is the same as on the card, then the card depicts a dome on ground level as an example among other dome options.

the issue here seems to be the speed at which an experienced player can defeat a novice. therefore, ban the card from tournament play. done. in any other situation you could just throw some popcorn at the jerk and move on to other gods.


Yeah, you are right, I checked the card after I went home from my work. The iconography tells you can do this.
 
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Francis Rivest
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This makes a lot of sens, thanks!
 
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Anthony Nguyen
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Quote:
Correct Heracles wrote:
Your Build: Once, instead of building normally both your Workers build any number of domes (even zero) at any level.


Now you can play with Heracles like he was intended and first-play isolation won't win against any power.



There is an error on the card?
 
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Niko
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Tonkers303 wrote:
Quote:
Correct Heracles wrote:
Your Build: Once, instead of building normally both your Workers build any number of domes (even zero) at any level.


Now you can play with Heracles like he was intended and first-play isolation won't win against any power.



There is an error on the card?
Top part of the post you quoted:
Quote:
Yes, Heracles can build domes at ground level (and often does). However, you are right about it being weird that he would use his power to do nothing and people are right that he is stronger than intended. During rules layout he switched from being a 'Your Build' to 'End of Turn' power; it was noticed but not corrected.
So no, not an error, but a change that while maybe not 100% intentional was still accepted.
 
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Alison Mandible
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mlvanbie wrote:
During rules layout he switched from being a 'Your Build' to 'End of Turn' power; it was noticed but not corrected.


That makes sense! Thanks for the emended wording.
 
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Alexandre Trentini
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Searching for counters I found out one that can counter this situation, Nemesis! If the players put their workers in oposite directions than the Heracle workers, they can put fear of exchanging pieces and turning over the isolation.

The corrected Heracles is not necessary if you put him to play 2nd, he can isolate himself, but the great majority of gods can put a worker on top of 3rd level faster than him if he is 2nd, and there is only 1 worker left for him to counter this, leaving his climb even more slow as he has to move his other worker to try to counter a god using 2 workers. Maybe against other heroes he seems a little bit OP, but I have to play more to evaluate this.
 
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