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Subject: 7 wonders with 1st time gamers rss

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Mihir Shah
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Have played this game many many times and 75% of the times it is with new gamer's who are not into board gaming. At all of those times the game takes around 90 mins to play even with 5 players, when i am playing this game with someone who has played 7 wonders before, the game takes 20 mins max.

To make it easier for non gamer's to get into this game we play with these 2 changes:

1)All players start with 6 gold. We buy resources from bank at 2 coins per resource (inspired from 7 wonders duel), the trading post changes the cost to 1 coin per resource if your neighbor at whom the arrow is pointing has build the resources indicated on the trading post. Each discard card gets you 3 coins.

2)We do not have military battles, instead after each round "X"(see below) no. of players get the respective military reward for the Age (1vp for age1, 3vp for age2, 5vp for age3) and the remaining get the respective military penalty (-1 vp token)and each looser also looses 2/3/4 coins in Age 1/2/3 respectively. If they do not have coins then they get -1VP tokens for each coin they do not have.
*X= 1 player (in 3&4 player game)
2 players (in 5&6 player game)
3 players (in 7&8 player game)
These winners/loosers are decided based on their total no. of military shields.
Thematically, consider this as rewards for building up your military defense capabilities in case of a future war.
*If playing with the Cities expansion then the diplomacy token negates the negative military effects (-1VP and coin losses) for the player playing it in that round, the diplomacy token gained from the black cities card must be used in the round the token is acquired and same goes with the diplomacy token through the building of the wonder, it must be used on the round the wonder was built.
*If loosing player plays Diplomacy token then the highest military winner of the round gets 1VP extra and if winners are tied then all the tied players get the extra 1VP token. (Thematically its like asking the military superpower for support in case of a war)



***on a side note, my regular gaming group likes this so much that we just play with the above changes all the time. We feel it removes one's bad scores possibility based on neighbor's poor play.

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Liallan G
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jalwaaa wrote:
1)We buy resources from bank at 2 coins per resource (inspired from 7 wonders duel), the trading post changes the cost to 1 coin per resource if your neighbor at whom the arrow is pointing has build the resources indicated on the trading post. Each discard card gets you 3 coins.


I'm not getting the point of this one or how it is a time saver. What am I missing?
 
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Mihir Shah
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Looking at what your neighbors have, to borrow from them resource-wise is time consuming for absolute new players and a hard concept to grab for someone totally new to board games.

Plus, this variant makes it less luck dependent as irrespective of your neighbors resources, you can buy any resource from the bank. In many of our games with new players, the players do not understand the importance of resources in the first stage and even in the second age, this poor play affects other players.

On the military end, if you sit and compare your military strength among-st neighbors, it just adds to the time, where as this variant, u usually know the results before the last card is played and then just the victory points are awarded. Also, it make no sense to us that in a game where you are competing to be the best civilization, why military is only played out with neighbors, in this variant it is compared to all. Suits our logic better in our opinion.
 
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Grarrrg Grarrrgowski
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jalwaaa wrote:
Liallan wrote:
I'm not getting the point of this one or how it is a time saver. What am I missing?
Looking at what your neighbors have, to borrow from them resource-wise is time consuming for absolute new players and a hard concept to grab for someone totally new to board games.
Plus, this variant makes it less luck dependent as irrespective of your neighbors resources, you can buy any resource from the bank.

But in a normal game, all the gold stays "in play" and none is lost. With your change people are either strongly encouraged to build Resource cards (good), and/or strongly encouraged to ditch cards for gold (not so good).

jalwaaa wrote:
On the military end... Also, it make no sense to us that in a game where you are competing to be the best civilization, why military is only played out with neighbors, in this variant it is compared to all. Suits our logic better in our opinion.


It makes perfect sense, from a historical/geographic perspective.
Example: France borders Germany. Germany borders Poland. France does NOT border Poland.
Therefore, as long as Germany exists, it is pointless to compare France's military to Poland's, as they never shall meet.

Similar logic with how you can only trade with your neighbors. They are the only ones you can reach.
 
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Mihir Shah
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grarrrg wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
Liallan wrote:
I'm not getting the point of this one or how it is a time saver. What am I missing?
Looking at what your neighbors have, to borrow from them resource-wise is time consuming for absolute new players and a hard concept to grab for someone totally new to board games.
Plus, this variant makes it less luck dependent as irrespective of your neighbors resources, you can buy any resource from the bank.

But in a normal game, all the gold stays "in play" and none is lost. With your change people are either strongly encouraged to build Resource cards (good), and/or strongly encouraged to ditch cards for gold (not so good).

jalwaaa wrote:
On the military end... Also, it make no sense to us that in a game where you are competing to be the best civilization, why military is only played out with neighbors, in this variant it is compared to all. Suits our logic better in our opinion.


It makes perfect sense, from a historical/geographic perspective.
Example: France borders Germany. Germany borders Poland. France does NOT border Poland.
Therefore, as long as Germany exists, it is pointless to compare France's military to Poland's, as they never shall meet.

Similar logic with how you can only trade with your neighbors. They are the only ones you can reach.


1)Gold staying in play is not a big deal for us but making the game less luck is a big deal for my group.

2)This variant making it resource favoring is something we have not noticed in our plays and hence its just hypothesis from your end, i suggest you try this variant and then come to appropriate conclusions.

3)I do not prefer to get into history but since u got it up, then in all the that i learnt in school, any entity winning the military battle in history takes over the land/territory and hence in that vein the person should be out of the game. Anyways, keeping history aside, i am competing in a game against all players and hence military should be compared to everyone. As i said before, we consider this as which civilization is battle ready by building a good military strength.
 
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Grarrrg Grarrrgowski
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jalwaaa wrote:
3)I do not prefer to get into history but since u got it up, then in all the that i learnt in school, any entity winning the military battle in history takes over the land/territory and hence in that vein the person should be out of the game. Anyways, keeping history aside, i am competing in a game against all players and hence military should be compared to everyone. As i said before, we consider this as which civilization is battle ready by building a good military strength.

And that's where "good flavor does not always make good gameplay" comes in.
Flavor/theme-wise, it would make perfect sense that you could eliminate your neighbors and expand territory if you were strong enough.
Game-wise, they didn't want player elimination, but still wanted some (greatly simplified) Military representation.

And it still makes sense game-wise that you only need care about your neighbors. Only ever having to worry about what 2 other people are building is a lot easier than trying to keep track of what (up to) 6 other people are doing (especially when some can be a fair distance across the table from you).
If this were a turn-based game, then there would be a fair amount of downtime which would allow for tracking/planning, but since everyone goes at the same time, it makes sense to limit what you need to care about in order to shorten turns.
 
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Mihir Shah
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grarrrg wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
3)I do not prefer to get into history but since u got it up, then in all the that i learnt in school, any entity winning the military battle in history takes over the land/territory and hence in that vein the person should be out of the game. Anyways, keeping history aside, i am competing in a game against all players and hence military should be compared to everyone. As i said before, we consider this as which civilization is battle ready by building a good military strength.

And that's where "good flavor does not always make good gameplay" comes in.
Flavor/theme-wise, it would make perfect sense that you could eliminate your neighbors and expand territory if you were strong enough.
Game-wise, they didn't want player elimination, but still wanted some (greatly simplified) Military representation.

And it still makes sense game-wise that you only need care about your neighbors. Only ever having to worry about what 2 other people are building is a lot easier than trying to keep track of what (up to) 6 other people are doing (especially when some can be a fair distance across the table from you).
If this were a turn-based game, then there would be a fair amount of downtime which would allow for tracking/planning, but since everyone goes at the same time, it makes sense to limit what you need to care about in order to shorten turns.


I think yours and mine thoughts are poles apart, your logic does not make any sense to me, hence you continue enjoying the game the way you like and we continue having a blast with this
 
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grarrrg wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
On the military end... Also, it make no sense to us that in a game where you are competing to be the best civilization, why military is only played out with neighbors, in this variant it is compared to all. Suits our logic better in our opinion.


It makes perfect sense, from a historical/geographic perspective.
Example: France borders Germany. Germany borders Poland. France does NOT border Poland.
Therefore, as long as Germany exists, it is pointless to compare France's military to Poland's, as they never shall meet.

Similar logic with how you can only trade with your neighbors. They are the only ones you can reach.
I hear this is why Rome and ancient China never battled. Back then, the distances between the 2 empires were great enough, and I forgot the nation that was between them, but that as well.

Would've been epic I'm sure!
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Liallan G
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jalwaaa wrote:

Plus, this variant makes it less luck dependent as irrespective of your neighbors resources, you can buy any resource from the bank. In many of our games with new players, the players do not understand the importance of resources in the first stage and even in the second age, this poor play affects other players.

Unless you explain it to them. I don't throw out tons of strategy while teaching a game, but that is one thing I toss out with this game, also making sure they know there's no resources in Age III.
 
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Mihir Shah
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Edited my OP to add the Cities expansion rules for the variant.
 
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