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Subject: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - Results posted! rss

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Jack K
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The 2017 Fire & Ice convention (in Manitowoc, WI) is fast approaching, and our tradition - nine years in a row - is to have a no-ship math trade.

This is a no-ship math trade. That means you don't have to pay shipping costs. It's a great way for you to trade with other local gamers, getting rid of those unwanted or underplayed games for other things you might want to try at no cost.

Even if you can't make it to the con, there are plenty of us who attend and we will be more than happy to be your proxy at the exchange - although it's always great to see you there.

Here are the links to the trade and request lists:

Trade GeekList: Fire & Ice 2017 - The Math Trade

Request GeekList: Fire & Ice 2017 - The Math Trade - Request List


Open for posting games: now until Friday, February 10th, 10pm.

Want list submission period: Friday, February 10th, 10pm to Friday, February 17th at 10pm.

Want lists and results will be publicly posted shortly thereafter.

Please see the trade GeekList for rules etc, and feel free to ask questions here...
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Roger M.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the Game Master.
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade
Thank you Jack for doing the math trade.

I always look forward to it. Yes, and to see everyone at the convention too. Also to sit at a table with them and beat them at their own game or at least try to. :D
All in all its an enjoyable time.

no worries

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Jack K
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade
There are just two more days to add items. We have 20 people participating so far!
 
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Jack K
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
448 items and 24 participants...

The want list submission period is now open!
 
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Andy Olp

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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
Just to clarify since I've never done this before, we send you a pm with our top 3 choices? And include which game we brought?
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Charles Boyung
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
Pyre wrote:
Just to clarify since I've never done this before, we send you a pm with our top 3 choices? And include which game we brought?


No. That is not how a math trade works at all. You go through the list, find what you would be willing to trade your listed items for. Then follow the instructions (use the videos linked to in the geeklist: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/568078/math-trade-video...) to build your want list. For example, you select all of the games you would be willing to take for your Arkham Horror game.

Once everyone has done that and submitted their want lists using the OLWLG, the math part of the math trade happens where it goes and calculates the maximum number of trades based on what everyone wants for their items. This may be a direct trade between two people, but most often, it is a chain. For example:

You give Arkham Horror to Jack
Jack gives Acquire to me
I give Dragon Lairds to you

Now, this would only happen if you were willing to take Dragon Lairds for Arkham Horror, Jack was willing to take Arkham Horror for Acquire, and I was willing to take Acquire for Dragon Lairds, of course (which I think would be an excellent trade, BTW, and one we should definitely make happen ), but I hope that gives you a better idea.

Once that is all calculated, the results are posted by Jack here and then you bring your items that actually traded to Fire & Ice, we meet up at noon on Saturday, and you give your games to whomever they go to, and the people who have games for you give them to you.
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Andy Olp

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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
Wow, I was trying to search for how to do this and apparently ended up in the completely wrong area. Thanks for the help!
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Charles Boyung
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
So, anyone desiring a MUCH faster method of checking all of those checkboxes, my Chrome extension for making the OLWLG actually usable is still available. I have also made some significant changes to it (for performance reason) that I will make available to anyone that wants to use it. Instead of arrows added to every cell, it now adds a context (right-click) menu to choose what you want to do - check all above, below, to the left, or to the right.

Just send me a message if you are interested and I'll get you everything you need.
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Charles Boyung
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
motoyugota wrote:
So, anyone desiring a MUCH faster method of checking all of those checkboxes, my Chrome extension for making the OLWLG actually usable is still available. I have also made some significant changes to it (for performance reason) that I will make available to anyone that wants to use it. Instead of arrows added to every cell, it now adds a context (right-click) menu to choose what you want to do - check all above, below, to the left, or to the right.

Just send me a message if you are interested and I'll get you everything you need.


Forgot I had actually published the extension to the Chrome store, so here's the link if anyone wants it:

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/olwlg-advanced/ooi...

I really need to put together a set of instructions for it someday, so if you want to know how to use it, just let me know.
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J. Brinks
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
So am I screwed as far as duplicate protection if I didn't make a dummy item? Apparently I assumed wrong when I assumed that "duplicate protection" was something automatically done by the math trade optimizer.
 
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Taylor Smith
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
You should still be able to create dummy items through the duplicate protection interface (that doesn't depend on the list being open; the items are virtual and not associated with "real" list items), and you can re-submit your wants as long as the submission period is active.
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Jack K
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
brinksw wrote:
So am I screwed as far as duplicate protection if I didn't make a dummy item? Apparently I assumed wrong when I assumed that "duplicate protection" was something automatically done by the math trade optimizer.


Taylor is correct.

You make the dummy items in step 4 (the grid with all the checkboxes). Look for the pale blue button at the top of the grid labelled "Duplicate Protection". You can make your dummies there and then submit (or resubmit) your want lists after that.
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J. Brinks
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
Got it, thanks guys. I glanced at it at work and didn't realize I could do it in the OWLG. Like I said, it has been several years since I've done one of these! Thanks!
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Jack K
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
brinksw wrote:
Got it, thanks guys. I glanced at it at work and didn't realize I could do it in the OWLG. Like I said, it has been several years since I've done one of these! Thanks!


I remember the old days of math trades - when there was no OLWLG, and you HAD to make your want lists (and dummy items) by hand. Back in those days, math trades often got up around 2,000 items too... shake
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Jack K
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
Three days are left to submit wants lists.

# MISSING 63 WANTS (14%) FROM 7 USER(s) (29.1%):
# boathouselooper (9)
# brinksw (9)
# Chris Freiberg (19)
# ecm85 (2)
# Joseph Hill (3)
# stoffelupegus (18)
# vvanasten (3)


16 out of 17 users who have submitted want lists are currently making at least one trade and 17.6% of the items for those users are trading (so far).

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Charles Boyung
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
anglotiger wrote:
Three days are left to submit wants lists.

# MISSING 63 WANTS (14%) FROM 7 USER(s) (29.1%):
# boathouselooper (9)
# brinksw (9)
# Chris Freiberg (19)
# ecm85 (2)
# Joseph Hill (3)
# stoffelupegus (18)
# vvanasten (3)


16 out of 17 users who have submitted want lists are currently making at least one trade and 17.6% of the items for those users are trading (so far).



If 17.6% of my items are trading, that would be amazing.
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Jack K
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
motoyugota wrote:
anglotiger wrote:
Three days are left to submit wants lists.

# MISSING 63 WANTS (14%) FROM 7 USER(s) (29.1%):
# boathouselooper (9)
# brinksw (9)
# Chris Freiberg (19)
# ecm85 (2)
# Joseph Hill (3)
# stoffelupegus (18)
# vvanasten (3)


16 out of 17 users who have submitted want lists are currently making at least one trade and 17.6% of the items for those users are trading (so far).



If 17.6% of my items are trading, that would be amazing.


Sorry - only about 14.3%...
 
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Ezra McNichols
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
This is my first math trade. I've watched all the videos and read through the wiki, and have learned the basic site.

My only question is: In my understanding it's possible to say you'd be willing to trade Game A from your collection for Game B AND Game C. I only see in the UI how to set up 1-for-1 trades. Is this all the software supports?

--E
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Charles Boyung
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
ecm85 wrote:
This is my first math trade. I've watched all the videos and read through the wiki, and have learned the basic site.

My only question is: In my understanding it's possible to say you'd be willing to trade Game A from your collection for Game B AND Game C. I only see in the UI how to set up 1-for-1 trades. Is this all the software supports?

--E


Your understanding is incorrect. It is not possible to say you would trade Game A for Game B and Game C, unless Games B & C are part of the same geeklist item. Math trades only work to trade one "item" for another "item".

Oh, and this is not just a limitation of the software. This is all that could ever be possible. There is no way to mathematically calculate the sort of trade scenario you have laid out. The only way that would ever be possible is if the owners of games B & C both had one want on their lists (C & D) from the same owner that in turn would give both C & D for A. The calculations in determining this sort of trade would be insanely complex and time-consuming, especially since the scenario I present is only the most basic scenario where this could work. In addition, the likelihood that any scenario where a chain could be created that works with a "one for many" trade in it (even the basic one I present here) is so incredibly rare that it would not be worth even attempting to implement the calculations involved.
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Ezra McNichols
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
Ok, that makes sense. The only reason I thought that it worked that way is that I'm 99% sure I read that in a post on /r/boardgames about a previous math trade. It's possible I misunderstood. When I saw that, I was greatly impressed by the calculations that would've gone into writing an algorithm for that - so I guess it makes sense that it's not that way.

Thanks!
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Ezra McNichols
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
I guess the bummer for me is that one of the games I'm trying to get rid of is in the $90 (new) breakpoint, with 3 expansions and the improved resource tokens. All the games I want are $40 or less (new), which feels like a very one-sided trade to me. OTOH I'm not currently playing Power Grid at all, so ...
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Charles Boyung
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
ecm85 wrote:
I guess the bummer for me is that one of the games I'm trying to get rid of is in the $90 (new) breakpoint, with 3 expansions and the improved resource tokens. All the games I want are $40 or less (new), which feels like a very one-sided trade to me. OTOH I'm not currently playing Power Grid at all, so ...


I think in that case, you are over-valuating what it's worth. The resource tokens are probably the most valuable item in that bundle. Without them, I'd put the bundle in the $40-50 range (that's what I could pretty easily buy the game and those expansions for via the BGG marketplace). The resources, if it's the same as the set that Stonemaier Games has available for Power Grid, is about $40 new (and those probably don't depreciate as much), so if you were counting everything in that bundle (which is not what it looked liked you were doing), you might hit the $90 in value.

There are several items that are worth as much as (or far more than) that bundle for sure, and those are all in greater demand than Power Grid, so you could try to trade for those and then sell them if you wanted.

Also, with all that said, Power Grid is not really in much of a demand right now (because there are so many copies out there), you may have to take an additional hit to trade it off anyways.

For future math trades, in this particular scenario, you would probably be better suited to split the resource tokens off to their own item, and just have the game and expansions together. The resource tokens are probably in much higher demand than the rest, but the people interested in the resource tokens probably already have the game, and have no need for another copy.
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Jack K
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
ecm85 wrote:
I guess the bummer for me is that one of the games I'm trying to get rid of is in the $90 (new) breakpoint, with 3 expansions and the improved resource tokens. All the games I want are $40 or less (new), which feels like a very one-sided trade to me. OTOH I'm not currently playing Power Grid at all, so ...


I get that. I have an item which is worth around that, and another worth twice that (or more). I'm not saying that you should do this, or that I will with my items, but here's what I often think to myself - particularly in these local trades:

- There's no shipping cost, as there is in most other math trades

- There's no BGG and/or Paypal commissions, as there are in auctions

- A game sitting on the shelf gathering dust, which I don't see myself playing again, is a sunk cost

- If there's something I really want worth less than my item, and the value is at least close enough that I don't care if I lose a little in terms or what I paid or actual value to get it, then I put it on my list.

The key here though is that, in your heart, you must be happy (or at least OK) making that trade. If someone walked up to you and asked you if you'd give up the thing that you don't want and offered you that item, would you think about it for a moment and then say yes? If so, put it on your list. If not then don't because it's better to not make a trade than to make one that you regret before you've even played what you traded for...

I hope that perspective helps.

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Charles Boyung
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
anglotiger wrote:

The key here though is that, in your heart, you must be happy (or at least OK) making that trade. If someone walked up to you and asked you if you'd give up the thing that you don't want and offered you that item, would you think about it for a moment and then say yes? If so, put it on your list. If not then don't because it's better to not make a trade than to make one that you regret before you've even played what you traded for...


Yeah, this is definitely key - we have lost at least one person who no longer participates in math trades because he specifically did not follow this advice.
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Jack K
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Re: Fire & Ice 2017 Convention Math Trade - open for want list submissions...
In a break with tradition, as a small experiment, I am going to post here the number of trades currently being made by each person. Whether or not you choose to look is entirely up to you...

I will not provide any details of the trades you are making, so please don't ask.

Of course - I am only including people who have submitted their want lists as of the time of posting:


Spoiler (click to reveal)

Aigol: 2 trades

Aksosa: 4 trades

Alcazar84: 2 trades

Anglotiger: 10 trades

Crunk004: 2 trades

Darthgamer: 5 trades

DrFace: 10 trades

Eimative: 1 trade

Funky Disco: 1 trade

Kixdsky: 2 trades

Kngslaqr: 3 trades

Mafman6: 1 trade

Malistar22: 1 trade

Motoyugota: 19 trades

Pez4u2eat: 3 trades

Pyre: No trades yet.

Tdhsmith: 3 trades


Remember that you have about two and a half days to adjust your want lists, if you decide that you want to boost those numbers, but also remember that you may get more (or lose some) just from the remaining people submitting their want lists and, more importantly, don't put items on your want lists unless you're really happy to make that. Some of us (particularly those with a lot of items) may put items on our lists just to grease the wheels for everyone in the trade, but that's our decision and you shouldn't do that unless you really want to...
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