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Subject: Various questions rss

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David Whitney
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1. If it's another player's turn and they move their units (any of them unless they have appropriate scanners) into your hex that contains raiders can you deny combat? I ask this because the section of the rule book, 12.1.2, that talks about the ability to not fight is titled the MOVEMENT advantage which makes me think that it is only the moving player who can choose to deny combat if he has raiders. While I do see that it says "It may also occupy a hex and not trigger combat" that could be just referring to the attacker/mover.

2. It says that a player can scuttle ships anytime during his turn. Can anyone think of a reason why anyone isn't allowed to scuttle their ships whenever they want? I can only see it if you're playing with experience to prevent someone from scuttling a ship that they think is about to be destroyed to prevent them from getting experience from it.

3. I've seen someone else on the forum mention that you can scuttle ships during an economic phase to avoid paying maintenance for it. I'm fine with the scuttling part, but it seems cheap if you can use a ship for three turns and not have to pay the maintenance that would come from that. Also, thematically the economic phase is supposed to take place at the same time as the previous three turns so it would not make sense if you can skip out of paying the maintenance.

4. When using MS pipelines just for the terrain ignoring benefits (not the speed boost) do the ships have to START on an MS ship?

5. When using MS pipelines just for the terrain ignoring benefits (not the speed boost) are the MS pipelines not able to move?

6. (rchandra's answer two posts down that says "5 again" is a response to this question as I mistakenly labeled this as a second question 5) In the solo DM scenario it says that asteroids don't affect DM's firepower (just their class in this case as DM's don't have attack tech), but it doesn't mention nebulas. It just seems a little odd that asteroids would affect them but not nebulas since they normally both affect ship's class.
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Vic R
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With regards to question 3 it is very tematical that you can use a ship for 3 turns and the refuse to pay maintenance and lost it but you are seeing it the wrong way. As you dont pay any maintenance during economic phase, the conditions on the ship get worse and worse during those 3 turns that you used it, and finally it becomes non operative for lack of maintenance and you lose the ship.
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Rahul Chandra
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1. Yes. Some details here.

4. So, you have pipelines on A B but not C, and A is a nebula, I think you could move C B A with sufficient move tech. If B is the nebula, I'm not sure if moving A B C is valid.

5. The pipelines can't move and provide any benefit.

5 again . I think you use 17.4 from the base rules, all other terrain has no effect. Not certain though.
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David Whitney
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Re: Various Questions
@vica8081. Ah, your explanation does thematically make sense. Thank you. I still can't help but feel that from a game play balance perspective it seems like a cheap move as the game play starts with the three turns first and then has an economic phase.

@rchandra. Regarding question 1, the post you tells me that defending raiders can ignore battles, but it also raises some questions.

1.1 It's a little surprising to me that if one moves into a hex with raiders that they have to stop rather than the defender deciding whether there is to be a battle or not and if he says no then you can continue moving. Did I really read that correctly?

1.2 In the post you linked I am wondering if at the sentence of "If the Raider’s Cloak is matched by the other side’s Scanners there will be a battle and the Raiders will be firing at D." and everything after that sentence is only talking about if the defender is the only one that has raiders. I am guessing yes based on earlier parts of that post.

1.3 On the turn after the one where one player's ships (say, you) move into a hex that has raiders and those raiders are still there for some reason (like not having a battle, which I think is the only possible reason) your ships can move to another hex, right? They're not stuck there for as long as the raider player wants to not have battles there until you can get some scanners there, right? I highly imagine this is not the case.

4. I have seen in other threads that the second situation is allowed, but I'm not sure (as well as you) if the first one is.

5. thank you.

6. Yeah, it would seem that way.

7. (Another raider question but it's not really related to the post you linked and my previous questions) Can a person with scanners decline to use them to prevent someone from moving their raiders through, or do you have to announce at least scanning level 1 (and then the mover would announce cloaking 2 if they have it, and then the defender could choose (or not have a choice) to announce scanner 2)?

Thank you both for your help.
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Niko
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1. The linked thread covers it, and explains the rules behind it. They may or may not make thematic sense to you, but I find that thematic justifications for rule changes are basically never a good idea. Good gameplay should come first and you can always insert some technobabble to justify it thematically.

1.1 Yes, you read that correctly. See above about the technobabble to justify it.

1.2 Yes, it seems to be written with just one side having raiders in mind. Otherwise it just becomes a lot longer to write down but not really more complicated.

1.3 The rules say that you need to stop when you move into a hex with enemy units (Rule 4.3) There's nothing in the rules about not being allowed to leave a hex with enemy ships.

4 No, the part about starting in a hex with a pipeline only appears here: "Any unit, including another MS Pipeline, that starts its movement on a chain of friendly MS Pipeline counters and spends its entire Movement Phase on the same chain may move an additional hex, as long as this hex is also part of the chain."
The later parts that talk about ignoring asteroids/nebulae/black holes do not say anything about starting in a hex with a pipeline, just that you need to travel along a pipeline, i.e. that the hex from which you enter the terrain and the terrain itself need to have a pipeline.

5 "If used to aid a ship’s movement, none of the MS Pipeline counters that form this chain may move during the turn." To me ignoring terrain effects counts as "aiding a ship's movement" so they cannot move.

6. Similar to Rahul I think 17.4 should govern. The way I read it the Scenario rules list departures from the DM rules for multiplayer games, that's why Asteroids are mentioned (they aren't destroyed as per 17.4, but simply have no effect) while all other terrain isn't mentioned because 17.34 already covers it.

EDIT:
7. Based on other comments from the designer it seems to me that the basic idea is "If you have it equipped you have to use it". I don't have any direct quotes for this though.

And since I missed them:
2. To free up a counter if component limits are reached.

3. Thematics are already covered, as for gameplay: Maintenance is so much cheaper than the cost to buy the ship that I'd never voluntary scuttle a ship just to not pay maintenance. The best ratio is 6:1 for buying:maintaining, so why ever scuttle a ship to build a new one? Much cheaper to keep the existing ships active, not to mention that the newly build ship will be at a shipyard, while the old ship has already moved.
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David Whitney
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@Ze_German_Guy I agree with all of your answers. Thank you.

I have some more questions.

8. I have a question related to 5.9.2 and its text of "(discounting any colony in the battle hex)". I'm not going to explain the reasoning behind my different interpretations of this as it would be long and probably a bit confusing. So, if you are fighting at one of your colonies can you retreat to any of the six hexes surrounding it (as long as they too are enemy free and explored) or do you have to choose another colony to retreat towards and follow the regular rules of retreating to a hex that is equal or closer in distance to the one its retreating from?

9. Can you choose to retreat towards one of your colonies if it has enemy ships at it? The reasoning behind why I ask this one could also be confusing so I won't bother explaining.

10. I have a questions related to 15.2's text "The use of MS Pipelines may not be combined with the Black Hole sling shot." I am wondering if you could, for example, have a ship with move 7 tech use an MS chain to travel through an asteroid unimpeded, exit the chain, and move into a black hole and choose to roll for the sling shot as it is no longer using the MS pipeline. Basically, I am wondering if you can choose to sling shot if during a ship's movement it is currently not using an MS chain, or if the rule is simply saying that if a ship uses an MS chain at any point in its movement that it can not sling shot.
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8. The sentence in question was added in V1.1 of the rules to (presumably) answer a question, but is superfluous and just leads to confusion (as can be seen here)
Since you already get to freely pick which of your colonies you want to retreat closer to and ignore all others for the purpose of the retreat it is unnecessary to specify that a colony in the hex of the fight can be discounted. Just ignore that part in brackets, the rules are literally the same without it.

9. Yes, the rules say closer or equidistant to a colony, not towards an unblockaded colony.

10. It's ambiguous. I don't see a reason why you can't use both in the same movement phase with one ship, as long as you make the roll for the slingshot as if the pipeline wasn't in the hex.
Sure, you can potentially move quite quickly that way but you also still suffer from the 60% chance of destruction.
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David Whitney
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8. So you can retreat to any of the six hexes around one of your colonies?

9. My reasoning had to do with the "(discounting any colony in the battle hex)" (it would be a kind of roundabout reasoning) text and/or the blockading mechanic. Thank you.

Thank you for your answers. I have some more questions (I hate being so detailed sometimes).

11. During the exploration phase you are supposed to apply the effects of flipping a tile over immediately. Would that mean if you just found a colony/mineral/space wreck with a scout and a colony ship(or miner) that you have to decide right then whether to colonize (or pick up the mineral/space wreck) it or not? In other words, you couldn't reveal a colony/mineral/space wreck with a scout and colony ship (or miner), reveal another tile, and then decide to colonize (ore pick up the mineral/space wreck) the first revealed tile?

12. In 6.7.2 it says "To signify towing, place the marker on top of the ship towing the mineral, the marker moves with the Mining Ship. There is no cost to do this and it may be done at any time." Could you claim the mineral even during another player's turn because it says it may be done at any time (I doubt it)? Could you claim it during a battle the miner is in? Could you claim it during the combat phase if the miner isn't in any battle? Could you claim it during the combat phase if a miner is in a space that is about to have a battle (when you have two or more battles to be done in a single combat phase)?

13. In 6.7.2 it says "When the ship and its mineral reach a hex with any colony (even a new one) or Homeworld, the mineral may be “deposited” on the planet where it will remain until the Economic Phase." If you move a mineral filled miner with a combat ship into one of your colonies that has enemy units at it could you still deposit the mineral during the movement? Could you deposit it during the combat phase? Could you deposit it after the battle is won during the combat phase? Could you deposit it after the battle is won during the exploration phase?
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8. Not necessarily, you can retreat to any adjacent hex that is the same distance or closer than the battle hex to any one of your colonies (homeworld counts too) Whether the battle hex has a colony in it or not is irrelevant to this since you will always need to chose another colony as the one that you are comparing distance to.
In other words, it depends on the placement of the other colonies

11. Miners are allowed to start towing minerals at any time, as such you can decide that you aren't towing a mineral when you reveal it and decide that you start towing it after all reveals are done (or wait until the next movement phase before moving the miner for that matter)

COs don't have such a clear wording, but here's my take on why I believe the answer is still no: There is no effect when revealing a planet. Instead colonizing happens when you place a CO onto the planet during your turn. The rules mention that this has to happen on your turn and may happen either after moving into the hex or after a combat in that hex. This to me isn't a complete list, after all it would prevent colonizing a planet with a CO that has been i the hex since the previous movement phase. As such the only limiting factor on colonizing is that it has to happen on your turn, which includes after all your exploring is done.
Unfortunately not a clear RAW argument.

12. Yes, though I usually make it clear on my turn if the mineral is being towed or not. Just seems a bit cleaner that way and especially during PBEM games it avoids needless delays.

13. I'd argue yes. Again, "when it reaches a colony" isn't an exclusive list to me as I'd have no problem allowing a miner to arrive at a colony (not depositing the minerals) and only drop them off in the next movement phase.
Same as above I'd argue that it has to happen on your turn though.

If you are looking for official answer to the questions I couldn't conclusively give RAW answers to you might still be in luck, the designer and some of the developers frequent these forums and might give answers here too.
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David Whitney
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8. Ah, so you can't choose the colony the battle is at to retreat "towards" but have to choose a different colony. Thanks.

11, 12, and 13. Agreed. The main problem I have with being able to colonize anytime on your turn (which would include your opponent's turn in combat if you count that as being within your overall turn (movement, combat, explore)) and claim and deposit minerals and space wrecks during your opponent's overall turns and combat turns is that it introduces a careful and quick real-time timing mechanic where you can pay attention to what your opponent is doing during his turn and can (well, you don't have to but it can be beneficial) quickly respond by colonizing or claiming or depositing before he does some further action in his turn. This type of game play mechanic doesn't belong in this kind of a turn-based strategy game in my opinion.

Thank you very much for your help everyone.
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Niko
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8. Well, you can chose the colony in the hex you are fighting in, but since you are at distance 0 to it any other hex is further away and you do not have any legal retreat destination. As such it's a nonsensical choice and picking literally any other colony to compare distances is better.

11, 12, 13 Agreed. That's part of the reason why I just do it on my turn.
From a game play perspective I've also never seen it come up.
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David Whitney
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A few more questions.

14. In 5.11 it says that "Ships revealed in combat are now returned to the map but remain face up and may be examined, along with their numeral markers, by other players at any time." It doesn't mention being able to ask the other player what technologies they have and him having to tell you, and so I'm wondering if you can do this (I imagine so).

15. In 5.11 it says "If they start a turn in the same hex as one of their colonies, they may be flipped face down (hiding their Numeral Marker also) before being moved and remain that way until they once again engage in combat." Do you flip at the beginning of your individual turn or the beginning of a turn on the turn track (when you move the turn marker)? I could see it being the latter as 3.0 defines a turn as consisting of all player's individual "turns".

16. In 9.10.4 it says "The ship must not move for an entire turn (it must begin and end the turn at the Ship Yard)." There are three possibilities I can see for how long a ship needs to be stationary at a shipyard. Does it only have to be there for the movement part of your individual turn, your entire individual turn, or the entire turn (the turn talked about in 3.0)? Also, if it's the last one what happens if you start the upgrade process in turn 3 and you're, say, the 2nd person in the individual player turn process (player 1 goes, then you, then someone else, then another) and the player turn process changes after the upcoming economic phase. Would you still have to wait for your individual turn to arrive or would it be at some other point?

17. I am wondering when exactly you are supposed to spend the CP for ship upgrades. I imagine you're allowed to do it at the end of the upgrade process (whatever that is which is question 16), and not required to do it at the beginning.
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14. Technologies need to be declared during combat. Technically it is up to the players to remember what tech opponents ships were equipped with, but I find sportsmanship dictates that you remind your opponent what tech the revealed ships have (unless you have the empire advantage that lets you upgrade in the field, in that case I'd only reveal the tech they had in the combat)

15. You flip at the beginning of each movement phase. Note that it doesn't say to flip during the econ phase, so if you are running low on counters of one type you might have to build into a revealed counter by RAW.

16. In general I'm treating each players movement phase as a turn. So player 1 gets turn 1 consisting of movement, combat, and exploration. Then player 2 gets their turn 1, then player 3, etc.
As such as long as the ship is at the hex when your turn starts (i.e. before moving) and still there at the end of your current turn (i.e. spends one movement phase in the same hex) it gets upgraded. If the next player attacks that hex you get to fight with the upgraded ship. If you upgrade in M2 you can move out in M3.

17. Beginning and end are so close together (within the same movement phase) that it doesn't matter. You need to have cp left over from the previous econ phase to do it, you can't wait until the next econ phase to pay it, not even if you upgrade in M3.
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David Whitney
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17. I could see it mattering in rare situations. Say you are thinking of whether to upgrade a fleet to fight some unknown ships based on how powerful they are and on the same turn you send a scout into it to find out what ships they are. If you had to spend the money at the beginning and then find out that they are decoys then that could be a waste of CP, but if you can spend it at the end then you can cancel the upgrade process upon noticing that they are decoys.
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The_Poena wrote:
17. I could see it mattering in rare situations. Say you are thinking of whether to upgrade a fleet to fight some unknown ships based on how powerful they are and on the same turn you send a scout into it to find out what ships they are. If you had to spend the money at the beginning and then find out that they are decoys then that could be a waste of CP, but if you can spend it at the end then you can cancel the upgrade process upon noticing that they are decoys.
Theoretically yes, but in gameplay that doesn't really come up. If you have created the opportunity to upgrade ships you might as well follow through and have upgraded ships later.
 
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8. I'm still confused on this. Why is there mention of distance here if you can only retreat to one of the adjacent hexes? I think the wording is just confusing. Could it also be said this way?:

The direction of the adjacent hex for retreat is determined by the closest friendly colony. If two or more colonies are equidistant, then either direction may be chosen from.
 
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greenlran wrote:
8. I'm still confused on this. Why is there mention of distance here if you can only retreat to one of the adjacent hexes? I think the wording is just confusing. Could it also be said this way?:

The direction of the adjacent hex for retreat is determined by the closest friendly colony. If two or more colonies are equidistant, then either direction may be chosen from.
No, you do not have to retreat towards your closest colony, but towards any of your colonies.
Easy mistake to make, but it will change how the game plays.
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But I am only allowed to retreat to a hex that is directly touching the hex I am retreating from correct?
 
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greenlran wrote:
But I am only allowed to retreat to a hex that is directly touching the hex I am retreating from correct?
Yes, you can only move into an adjacent hex as part of the retreat.
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Nate Martin
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
greenlran wrote:
8. I'm still confused on this. Why is there mention of distance here if you can only retreat to one of the adjacent hexes? I think the wording is just confusing. Could it also be said this way?:

The direction of the adjacent hex for retreat is determined by the closest friendly colony. If two or more colonies are equidistant, then either direction may be chosen from.
No, you do not have to retreat towards your closest colony, but towards any of your colonies.
Easy mistake to make, but it will change how the game plays.

So true! "Closest Colony" (or was it "towards your homeworld?") is actually the crucial rule change that Jim made for that variant with different retreat rules, and it totally changes how early aggression plays out (slower, more incremental, and more defensive).

FWIW, I teach retreats using the word "Disengage" for this reason. "Retreat" nigh-inescapably connotes "rearward." Disengage feels better for the side-slipping or even outright advancing that is possible and often profitable under the RAW.
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Vodot wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
greenlran wrote:
8. I'm still confused on this. Why is there mention of distance here if you can only retreat to one of the adjacent hexes? I think the wording is just confusing. Could it also be said this way?:

The direction of the adjacent hex for retreat is determined by the closest friendly colony. If two or more colonies are equidistant, then either direction may be chosen from.
No, you do not have to retreat towards your closest colony, but towards any of your colonies.
Easy mistake to make, but it will change how the game plays.

So true! "Closest Colony" (or was it "towards your homeworld?") is actually the crucial rule change that Jim made for that variant with different retreat rules, and it totally changes how early aggression plays out (slower, more incremental, and more defensive).

FWIW, I teach retreats using the word "Disengage" for this reason. "Retreat" nigh-inescapably connotes "rearward." Disengage feels better for the side-slipping or even outright advancing that is possible and often profitable under the RAW.
Do you happen to have a link to this retreat rule variant? I don't remember reading about it before.
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Hm. Well, I can't find it either. Now I'm thinking it was someone else posting an idea.

Here's a Jim post where he discusses closest vs. any colony; but I think I'm conflating posts like this with his "Supply Lines" variant.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/12359838#12359838
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David Whitney
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I came up with another question.

In Section 9.7 Terraforming Technology it says that colony ships that were purchased before this technology do not gain its benefit.

What I'm wondering is if you are allowed to upgrade colony ships at a ship yard to get terraforming tech that was researched after they were built, just like upgrading any other tech on other ships. And if so, I guess you'd have to mentally remember which colony ship has terraforming tech and which doesn't (although, assuming you can't upgrade preexisting colony ships you still have to remember which ones were built before the tech was researched and which ones were built after).
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Yes, you can, but I never have.

I'm not building a colony ship unless I have some place I know I can send it, so it would still be heading to that original spot and not heading back to a SY for upgrade after I research terraforming.
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Thanks for the answer.
 
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