Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

SeaFall» Forums » Rules

Subject: Raid vs. Smuggler (light Box 1 spoilers) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Had a situation today where I had to raid another player's ship to keep him from getting a Milestone. He had played the Smuggler earlier in the round, giving him +2 Hold when taking a Buy action.

The Smuggler has been part of the FAQ already, with people asking when that +2 Hold expires. The only official answer I've seen is here:
RobDaviau wrote:
Goods bought by the smuggler stay on the ship after the smuggler is exhausted. As long as there is no change to your hold size, you are fine.

You check hold capacity when:
You add to the hold
The hold size changes due to an upgrade/damage.


So then, since a ship's Hold determines its Defense in a ship-to-ship raid, we played it so he had a Defense of 5 when his natural Hold is 3.

That seems pretty strong for such a low-cost Advisor, and not really thematically appropriate! Thematically, the Smuggler is good at storing more goods than you thought you could, not at fighting off another ship, I'd think.

Then there's this unofficial response:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
I believe the official answer is your hold value remains +2 until you would check the hold number again. Events such as transferring goods, upgrading hold, being raided, or some Captains Booke tests could cause it to go away.


So which is it? Does the Smuggler really confer the equivalent of +2 Defense indefinitely as long as the person who played it doesn't add to the Hold or take Hold damage/apply a Hold upgrade? Or is this an unintended consequence of the rules as written?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Addington
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmb
I would say that it provides +2 to Hold when buying goods. You can keep those goods on the ship until you transfer them. In all other facets, the hold of the ship is it's normal value.

In that raid, it's hold should have been 3.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Des T.
Germany
flag msg tools
This user optimizes his gaming experience.
badge
This user might be a mutant in hiding.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The smuggler allows you to buy and store two more goods than the ship can hold. Neither the card, nor the developer, say it increases the ship's hold value. So yes, giving the ship extra defense was a mistake.

The "unofficial answer" is just an interpretation by a player. It directly contradicts what the developer said. Note how Rob does not say the ship has +2 hold. If you read the thread where he posted that reply, you'll see that the consensus there is that the hold rating isn't influenced. Rob chimes in the discussion to clarify a very specific example (What happens on a post-smuggler ship when a single extra good, but not both, are unloaded).
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
The clarification is that goods in excess of hold stay until something else happens to check or modify hold value (such as a -hold damage card, but also theoretically when you upgrade your hold or try to add something to it.)

Definitely do not treat the ship's defense as being higher if another player attacks you.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
While I agree with y'all's interpretations, I need to play devil's advocate because the player whose defense we increased invoked rules lawyering and the information out there wasn't enough for me to say definitively that he was incorrect.

Here's what the card says:
The Smuggler wrote:
When you take the buy goods action, treat your hold value as two higher than its current value.


So with his natural hold of 3, he does a buy goods action and gets to treat it as if he has a hold of 5. But once the Smuggler is exhausted, we are still treating those ships as if they had holds of 5, or else we'd just dump all of the goods in excess. It doesn't say "for the buy goods action..." so "treat your hold value as two higher" could apply to anything the hold is used for.

If the clarification is specifically that goods in excess of the hold stay until something else happens to check or modify hold value and not that the treatment of the hold value itself stays as two higher until that occurs, then all I need is a pointer to that official ruling (as in, a statement from Rob or JR). Just consensus from random BGG users might not be enough to argue the case.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Dexter345 wrote:

So with his natural hold of 3, he does a buy goods action and gets to treat it as if he has a hold of 5.


Do you let him sell those 5 goods and then hold 5 more when the Smuggler is no longer active? After he refreshes it in winter and uses it again, do you let it have a hold of 7?

Probably not. Advisors only do their thing when they are active. The reason the goods don't fall off is that they don't ever fall off unless something happens to cause you to need to check for overstuffing (like trying to put more on or getting damaged).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
lactamaeon wrote:
Do you let him sell those 5 goods and then hold 5 more when the Smuggler is no longer active? After he refreshes it in winter and uses it again, do you let it have a hold of 7?

Probably not. Advisors only do their thing when they are active. The reason the goods don't fall off is that they don't ever fall off unless something happens to cause you to need to check for overstuffing (like trying to put more on or getting damaged).


No, because that is explicitly forbidden by the official ruling:
"You check hold capacity when:
You add to the hold
The hold size changes due to an upgrade/damage."

But according to that ruling you don't check hold capacity when a raid is initiated. So it is still treated as as two higher.

OR if it turns out you do check it when a raid is initiated (as the second post I linked to earlier says) then that would mean you could force a ship with smuggled goods to drop its excess by simply initiating a raid, whether that raid succeeds or fails.

Like I said, I like your explanation that the goods stay in the hold until the hold is checked rather than that the hold stays at +2 until the hold is checked, but I need an explicit written ruling from an official source to squash this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Des T.
Germany
flag msg tools
This user optimizes his gaming experience.
badge
This user might be a mutant in hiding.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Your explicit written ruling is:

"It's obvious that this isn't the intent of the card, and that it would be ridiculously powerful if it worked like that. The players on the "semi-official" game forum are in agreement that it's not the intended use of the card. The game developer himself hasn't said anything to contradict them, even though he's active on the forums.

You're clearly trying anything to gain an advantage in this game, even ruining our enjoyment of it. If you intend to continue behaving in this manner, you won't be asked to game with us again."

Seriously. I wouldn't let a person with that mindset anywhere near my gaming groups. If the majority of the group agrees on how something works, he's just being disruptive by further arguing it.

Edit:
The rules lawyer approach is this:
Quote:
When you take the buy goods action, treat your hold value as two higher than its current value.


Note how I bolded the word "when". According to the dictionary, when means
Quote:

when
adverb
adverb: when

1.
at or on which (referring to a time or circumstance).
"Saturday is the day when I get my hair done"



The effect is conditional, it occurs when you take the "buy goods" action and only then. Nothing states that the effect remains after the action has been completed. And now it's up to your rules lawyer to prove that the effect remains afterward.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DeS_Tructive wrote:
The effect is conditional, it occurs when you take the "buy goods" action and only then. Nothing states that the effect remains after the action has been completed. And now it's up to your rules lawyer to prove that the effect remains afterward.


It has already been officially clarified that the effect remains afterward, or else the Smuggler would be useless and excess goods would be dumped into the sea at the end of the turn. That's why I'm saying I wish it said "for a buy goods action" because that would imply the hold is not modified for any other reason.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Dexter345 wrote:
DeS_Tructive wrote:
The effect is conditional, it occurs when you take the "buy goods" action and only then. Nothing states that the effect remains after the action has been completed. And now it's up to your rules lawyer to prove that the effect remains afterward.


It has already been officially clarified that the effect remains afterward, or else the Smuggler would be useless and excess goods would be dumped into the sea at the end of the turn.


What has been clarified is that you don't check for excess goods in your hold at the end of your turn, but only when something happens that specifically needs to check for it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There's this very fine distinction we're working with here. The clarification from Rob isn't that "you check for excess goods when something happens that specifically needs to check for it," it's "you check hold capacity when you add to the hold or the hold size changes." Since being the target of a raid is not on that list, hold capacity is not checked the possible implication is that remains as it was when the Smuggler was activated.

I think I'm just going to have to go with "BGG users who weighed in unanimously agreed that the Smuggler does not affect your defense in a raid, though the most current official ruling still might support this unintended consequence if you want to take the rules lawyering to the extreme." Maybe I'll leave that second part off.

Thanks for all your help.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
It's pretty clear by now that Rob isn't good at using precise terminology, I'll grant you that.

But I would say that "check hold capacity" exactly means "check to see if you need to throw excess goods overboard", and that Rob is saying you don't do that until some damage card happens, or you are loading more goods onto that ship, or whatever, rather than doing that continuously.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Des T.
Germany
flag msg tools
This user optimizes his gaming experience.
badge
This user might be a mutant in hiding.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dexter345 wrote:
DeS_Tructive wrote:
The effect is conditional, it occurs when you take the "buy goods" action and only then. Nothing states that the effect remains after the action has been completed. And now it's up to your rules lawyer to prove that the effect remains afterward.


It has already been officially clarified that the effect remains afterward, or else the Smuggler would be useless and excess goods would be dumped into the sea at the end of the turn. That's why I'm saying I wish it said "for a buy goods action" because that would imply the hold is not modified for any other reason.


No. it hasn't been officially clarified. Check what Rob said. You're attempting to argue under the assumption that you're required to constantly check effects. That is wrong. This is what happens according to what Rob said and the card text:
- You buy goods. Normally, you could buy only as much as hold value. But the smuggler allows you to buy two more, increasing the capacity for this action.
- The action ends, and hold immediately goes down by two. But since it doesn't get constantly checked, there's no issue.
- As soon as an effect checks hold capacity, the goods are discarded because they're over capacity. The effects that check hold capacity are as stated by Rob.

Rob himself states that the capacity isn't constantly checked.

Quote:
It's pretty clear by now that Rob isn't good at using precise terminology,

So true. On the other hand, it takes a very... specific mindset to misunderstand the mechanics and insist on their point of view despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DeS_Tructive wrote:
On the other hand, it takes a very... specific mindset to misunderstand the mechanics and insist on their point of view despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.


I kind of doubt there was misunderstanding so much as not wanting to be raided at that particular point in time and being able to argue using the written rules in favor of that desire.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Des T.
Germany
flag msg tools
This user optimizes his gaming experience.
badge
This user might be a mutant in hiding.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, I get that. But as I said before, that kind of mindset is the hallmark of a player type I wouldn't tolerate very long in my game groups.

Being a douche to gain an advantage in a game by rules-lawyering to the point where other players simply let him have his way because they want to get on with the game. It makes a game an extremely unpleasant experience for all those involved.

If I was a player on that group, I'd strongly consider not continuing the campaign, even if it means tossing away my share of the game's costs. If I was the host, I'd most likely give him a stern warning.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Daviau
United States
Unspecified
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry about all the mess with the Smuggler. He was an early advisor and probably should've been removed from the final game as holds and ships changed a lot since he was conceived. It's hard to summarize all the information such a small space.

Here's how he works. When you use him to buy goods, you may consider your hold to be two larger than it is. After the goods are in the hold, they can stay there as long as you need. Your hold is otherwise unaffected, especially as a combat stat.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Kaemmer
United States
Iowa City
Iowa
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RobDaviau wrote:
Sorry about all the mess with the Smuggler. He was an early advisor and probably should've been removed from the final game as holds and ships changed a lot since he was conceived. It's hard to summarize all the information such a small space.

Here's how he works. When you use him to buy goods, you may consider your hold to be two larger than it is. After the goods are in the hold, they can stay there as long as you need. Your hold is otherwise unaffected, especially as a combat stat.


Thank you Rob for the intervention! (that certainly got needlessly out of hand)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.