Robert B
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Special Rule #5 states "The Axis player may not gain Exit VPs"

It's pretty much the same situation as Scenario 77 from the Fall of the West battle pack discussed here a couple of years ago:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1062972/scenario-77-ssr-3-u...

So, can the Finns exit the Russian board edge for 0 VPs?
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Mark Buetow
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Unless there is something that says they are eliminated when exiting, they can exit normally and just score no points.
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Ahmed Hadzi
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Malacandra wrote:
Unless there is something that says they are eliminated when exiting, they can exit normally and just score no points.


I find it odd.

If Russians don't get move card there is no way they can prevent exit. And if Finns draw either 2 moves or, 1 move and one advance in their starting hand, then it's pretty much game over after 1st card play by the Axis.

Not to mention that scenario description says: "Finnish units stubbornly defended..."
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Ahmed Hadzi
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Further more,

All units can be in cover just waiting to exit thanks to the foxholes. If Russian's peak their head Finns can amass 14FP op shot WITH Molotov, breaking any Russians almost guaranteed.

With all Finns clustered in the bottom left of the map, the question becomes not if the Finns will win, but will it take them one, two or three activations to do so.
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Rick Galli
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I'm with Ahmed on this one.

If the Finns setup concentrated in the corner near Obj 4 & 1, then they can exit their entire force with 2 Orders. They might be able to do this with their first hand, they certainly ought to be able to do it before the Russians can stop them. Even if they don't score any VPs for exiting, they start with 5 and control of all the objectives, which is more than they need for the win. Proper placement of the wire markers should slow down any Russian attempt to grab Objectives 3/2/5 before the Finns exit. Additionally, the Finns will know what two out of three of the objective chits are before they set up, and thus will have a very good idea of of how viable an early exit strategy is.

I really think SSR 5, rather than simply preventing the Axis from scoring exit VPs, ought to disallow any Axis exit or state that any Axis unit exiting the map for any reason is eliminated.

I read Bryan's argument concerning Scenario #77, but I think the Finnish situation, while similar, is more favorable than the German situation in #77. Primarily due to the three available wire markers and the thick woods the Russians have to move through in order to be able to attack the Finns or seize any unguarded objectives. That being said, I also intensely dislike the phrasing of SSR 3 in Scenario #77.

This is supposed to be a tournament scenario. I think the mere fact that a possible early "Instant Win" gambit exists diminishes the value of this scenario in a competitive setting. I personally would favor an amendment to SSR 5.
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gallid wrote:
I really think SSR 5, rather than simply preventing the Axis from scoring exit VPs, ought to disallow any Axis exit...

This is my thinking on this one, despite precedence with a similarly worded special rule in another scenario.

Ironically, if I recall correctly Bryan Collars did I think have the "can't exit" or "is eliminated if exited" clause in there and I excised it to shorten the rule. cry
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Dan Huffman
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Chad Jensen wrote:
gallid wrote:
I really think SSR 5, rather than simply preventing the Axis from scoring exit VPs, ought to disallow any Axis exit...

This is my thinking on this one, despite precedence with a similarly worded special rule in another scenario.

Ironically, if I recall correctly Bryan Collars did I think have the "can't exit" or "is eliminated if exited" clause in there and I excised it to shorten the rule. cry


Chad, I think you are allowed to occasionally make a small errata. We just aren't used to seeing them from you.
 
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Ahmed Hadzi
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After playing this in the Semis of our latest CCVT, I am absolutely sure that Russians can't beat this gambit.

I was lucky enough that my opponent didn't draw 2 moves immediately, but even with this development it was impossible to penetrate the Finnish corner cluster. Gaining a good shooting position with Russians is neigh impossible. Even if you gain a shooting position the existence of road means that it's impossible to stop the units from exiting EVEN if you break them, as they only need to traverse two hexes to exit the map.

Ruling on Finns exiting MUST be changed that Finns are eliminated if they exit in order for this to be considered a competitive scenario. Two card discard and this rule just give the Finns insane advantage.
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Rick Galli
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I also played this scenario in the semi-finals of the latest BGG CC Vassal Tournament. Read the AARs here and here.

In my match the gambit wasn't used, but only because the bidding for sides reduced the Finnish starting VP to 2 and because Objective Q (5=5VP) was drawn as the open chit. Furthermore, the Finnish hidden Objective was Objective K (3=3VP). This meant that if the Russians could get to Objectives 3 and 5 before the Finns exited, the Russians would certainly win, and my opponent felt the gambit was thus too risky.

I did notice that in the game between Ahmed and Lefty, the Russians were able to seize Objective 5 and exit some troops for VPs before the Finns exited, but it still wasn't enough to offset the power of this gambit. In their match, the chits and starting VPs (due to bids) were very different. The final determination to attempt the gambit is made during setup, after the chits are drawn, and this provides significant intelligence as to the viability of the gambit.

I am also of the opinion that this gambit ought to be eliminated as a possibility from competitive matches. Either by issuing an official erratum for SSR 5 or future tournament directors need to issue a special rule when this scenario is used in a tournament setting.

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Yikes!!


I went back and checked my archived file on this scenario. My notes indicate that I was supposed to correct the SSR to Axis units May Not Exit but somehow that failed to translate into the submission I sent to Chad for the creation of the official scenario card.

So, I'd like to make it official errata that TBP Scenario #7, SSR #5, last sentence should read, "Axis units are eliminated if they exit the board for any reason."
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Robert B
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Bryan, do your notes say anything about the Finnish discard in this scenario? It seems strange that they don't get the usual 'discard one even if an order was played' ability. An oversight perhaps?

Also, if the finger is out of the dike with respect to errata, any chance we can get something on Resistance leaders Command effect on non-leader attributes? ;-) **ducks**
 
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Dan Huffman
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NinetySixer wrote:
Yikes!!


I went back and checked my archived file on this scenario. My notes indicate that I was supposed to correct the SSR to Axis units May Not Exit but somehow that failed to translate into the submission I sent to Chad for the creation of the official scenario card.

So, I'd like to make it official errata that TBP Scenario #7, SSR #5, last sentence should read, "Axis units are eliminated if they exit the board for any reason."


Not to put too fine a point on it, but it would be nice if the actual official errata could be updated as well.

And officially: Thanks, Bryan!!
 
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Chadwik
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huffman123 wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but it would be nice if the actual official errata could be updated as well.

We did, two days ago. I sent it to GMT and they will, in due time, update it on their website.
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