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Subject: What Kind of Community Do We Want to Have? rss

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Tokah
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I talk about myself as he in the third person. This isn't a typo. =)
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Jared,

A lot of good work has gone into the back end of this January in terms of healing the previous January's wounds. Experientially, a big village square discussion invites a lot of people that don't actually play currently but still have gripes with each other, weird side topics that were fine in practice and improving but suddenly seem insurmountable because of mob effect, etc.

It is part of why I didn't include that kind of community discussion into that project, and I fear starting one now is likely to do a lot of unproductive stuff. I think the ability to speak about these things both publicly and productively, and come away without weird escalations is a goal - I don't think we're there yet, though. :/
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Tokah
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I talk about myself as he in the third person. This isn't a typo. =)
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If we are going to manage that, though, it is going to start with the question of how to manage people who don't enjoy playing with each other asked in a much more neutral fashion than that, though, human nature being what it is.
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Ryan Gatti
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TFang wrote:
If we are going to manage that, though, it is going to start with the question of how to manage people who don't enjoy playing with each other asked in a much more neutral fashion than that, though, human nature being what it is.

If this remains a persistent issue (ie. Let Group A be a group with 1 or more members. Let Group B be a mutually exclusive group with 1 or more members. If the situation exists where Group A and Group B cannot coexist, but both have interest in joining the same games...), then it would seem that Group A and Group B would have to agree to either resolve their differences (assume that is unlikely based on construction) or communicate an arrangement such that they equally exclude themselves from an equal number of games to ensure that they neither overlap, nor that either Group bears an unreasonable burden of selective exclusion.

Quote:
It doesn't have to be like this
All we need to do is make sure we keep talking
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Tokah
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I talk about myself as he in the third person. This isn't a typo. =)
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And that is exactly the kind of mood in which you'll be unable to see other people's perspectives, Jared, but which could cause lasting harm and make the problem worse.

If you unquote the GM and still want to have this out in the morning, I can commit to you that I'll front man that discussion - I have fears still, but it'll work out better than this will.
 
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Zed TwoEggs
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Booooo.

Boo.

Certainly this should have been addressed in a different way and I think it's appropriate you air the grievance. That's truly unfortunate, Jared.
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Tokah
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I talk about myself as he in the third person. This isn't a typo. =)
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JaredW25 wrote:
TFang wrote:
And that is exactly the kind of mood in which you'll be unable to see other people's perspectives, Jared, but which could cause lasting harm and make the problem worse.

If you unquote the GM and still want to have this out in the morning, I can commit to you that I'll front man that discussion - I have fears still, but it'll work out better than this will.

I'm not going to unquote the GM. The only point it will disappear is when I delete this account, which is probably going to happen soon at this point.

I'm also disgusted that you aren't disgusted by this and defensive of people who are actively being excluded. So no, I don't really want you to be my front man.


I hate the manner of it, Jared - whoever asking someone else, who the mod in question then uses as his reason for saying no. It is ugly.

I also have committed to the way I'll organize my own games after FT&S, you know this, because I decided where I fall on it. I hate what I did there, and it isn't approach I'd use again. And I've put a lot of work into making myself never have to be tempted to in the future.

But I understand the impulses at work, and they have nothing to do with last year, and I think that at some points, and for some times, they might actually include people agreeing not to play together and to talk that out where needed in an open frank manner without feeling like they'll get pilloried. And I don't think you're in a mood where you could hear me on those point, and I know if you can't hear me, you probably can't hear other people very well.

You say your most out of character stuff that least represents you as a person, a person I value deeply, when you are in this kind of mood, and in this environment, I see that as likely to keep people hearing your very legitimate points on this topic.

If I didn't care, and if I didn't think you had legitimate points worth expressing, I wouldn't be here and I'd be dusking my game right now.
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Zed TwoEggs
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I mean....

It's too early for a follow up. But it's so very disturbing. Just egregious in so many ways. It's a crime against humanity, reason, gaming, etiquette, pretty much everything I hold dear.

Oi - that will take a bit to recover.
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JaredW25 wrote:
TFang wrote:
If we are going to manage that, though, it is going to start with the question of how to manage people who don't enjoy playing with each other asked in a much more neutral fashion than that, though, human nature being what it is.

There's not a single person here I don't mind playing with. Am I friends with them all? Nope. But can I tolerate them for the sake of a game? Yep. It's called being an adult. If you're the one with the problem with somebody but they can get along with you, then it's on you to step out of the game instead of forcing them out.


I do think that you will find that a very big group of BGG WW isn't interested in playing WW other than as a means to hang out. Perhaps that isn't true, but that is the impression I get. I'm not surprised to see something like this, but I don't like it just the same. I don't know what the ideal solution is though, as I know "suck it up" ends up with people feeling hurt on the other side, whether they should or not.
 
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Zed TwoEggs
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Pretty much a formal apology is the answer I suppose. just handled so very poorly. Not trying to fuel the fire but it's sooo bad to do that - might as well tell someone - I will not let you play in my games - you should leave the community.
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Tokah
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I talk about myself as he in the third person. This isn't a typo. =)
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Jared, you are among the very select group of people in the whole world I can say this about:

I will fight WITH you FOR you, so I can later fight ALONGSIDE you.


You know the core of me, you know how hard that process is, and that when I do so, it is with tears and chest pain.

If you do it this way, your legitimate points will be swallowed up, and I think they deserve to be made, and we have suprising allies in that.
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Zed TwoEggs
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JaredW25 wrote:
zd00 wrote:
Booooo.

Boo.

Certainly this should have been addressed in a different way and I think it's appropriate you air the grievance. That's truly unfortunate, Jared.

I'm probably not in the best headspace at the moment so my judgment might be a bit compromised on how to deal with it. Normally I like to air dirty laundry directly so as to get to the root of things, but I realize that may be a bit too direct for polite resolution. However, in my state of likely compromised judgment I'm willing to settle for "resolution" rather than "polite resolution".
for clarity which you may realize "this" was you being removed from the game, not the thread. The thread is pretty much critical at this point.
 
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maf man
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JaredW25 wrote:
I'm not going to unquote the GM. The only point it will disappear is when I delete this account, which is probably going to happen soon at this point.

I'm also disgusted that you aren't disgusted by this and defensive of people who are actively being excluded.


So I'm seeing this not knowing a thing so the only thing I can be sure of is that it seems in poor taste to post a private message. You say its insane, I don't know exactly what it is.

Something that sucks happened to you, you should vent but not lash out. If this is something serous enough to make you delete your account its probably worth taking about.
 
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George Buss
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Ouch.

I don't know the situation that led to this, but I know that asking people to step out of a game because other players don't want you there is not appropriate.

Asking to have someone removed is really inapropriate - there are very few real reasons for that in our space.

I'm really disheartened about this.


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Decent people can have poor judgment. Often in small, passing ways. Sometimes in sustained ways that have hurtful effects.

From my (admittedly information-poor) perspective, this is potentially explosive, and also potentially small and solvable. May I request that we all do what we can to steer it in the general direction of small and solvable? I like, respect, and want to keep playing games with each of the individuals that seem to be involved.

Jared, in your shoes, I'd be upset and offended at being singled out for exclusion from this game, on whatever basis, and I'd want an open discussion of community trends that seem (at least from your perspective) to validate such exclusion. You have my sympathies, at least to that extent.

Slathe, in your shoes, I'd feel obliged to take players' concerns about an inflammable roster seriously, and not shirk the group-dynamics aspects of the mod's role, and to take whatever action I was going to take reasonably promptly, even if that meant it might be an imperfect action. You have my sympathies, at least to that extent.

mono, in your shoes, I'd feel responsible for getting information to the mod about what's brewing among my fellow players, even if I knew I didn't have the full story, even at risk of becoming the vector for anonymous complaints and a target of ire. You have my sympathies, at least to that extent.

There are probably also things about each person's role in this that I have a harder time sympathizing with, but that's fundamentally less important to me.
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JaredW25 wrote:


The irony of this geekmail is probably only surpassed by the irony of me stirring stuff up by posting this. But this is insane.

Edit - Explanation: I signed up for Heavy is the Hand. I was removed from the game prior to start up with a message from the mod (see attached) that some people had asked me to be removed.


I think this is unacceptable.

If there's someone I don't want to play with, I drop the game. It's not for me to put myself ahead of any other player.
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LJ
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With Trigirl being this lock consensus good read for so many people, I find it really bizarre that she's alive. Just don't lock clear her for tone. There's a threshold where if she's still alive she should probably just be murdalated.
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I posted this in the game thread before I realized there was a separate one for it.

ljtrigirl wrote:
I really wanted to play this game. I enjoy playing with 90% of the roster, and the entire reason that I didn't is because I know what happens when I play with a few specific people. So I don't sign up for games with them. Getting a mod to kick them out of a game is something that I would never do and shouldn't be done. If you have an issue playing with someone, either work it out with them personally or don't play with them.

I was just going to GM this to Slathe, but I think that it's important to be said out loud.


I also want to bring up that Jared and gelrod have done more intentional work on trying to reign in some of their natural harshness than pretty much anyone else I know. And that they've made repeated attempts to smooth over wrinkles with other players in ways that have not been fully reciprocated. It is mind boggling to me that this would be the reaction towards that effort.
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I had to lie to you because the situation called for that. I had to lie because what I would have lost with the truth I could have never got back. I had to lie.
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I feel trepidation about posting here, because I don't know all the context that went into this. And also these things can turn really nasty and acrimonious. But I thought on some level it was important for me to say this. Because I'd speak up for other people.


This is a bad situation, and I'm bothered by it. I feel bad on your behalf, Jared. Again, not knowing the context so willing to be corrected, but that doesn't seem right.
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pilotbob wrote:
JaredW25 wrote:


The irony of this geekmail is probably only surpassed by the irony of me stirring stuff up by posting this. But this is insane.

Edit - Explanation: I signed up for Heavy is the Hand. I was removed from the game prior to start up with a message from the mod (see attached) that some people had asked me to be removed.


I think this is unacceptable.

If there's someone I don't want to play with, I drop the game. It's not for me to put myself ahead of any other player.


I do think there can be a line where this is acceptable. If 2 people can't coexist in a game for whatever reason, and 1 of them wants to compromise and share games and the other does not, then I can see something like this being needed. But I don't believe that to be the situation here.
 
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pilotbob wrote:
JaredW25 wrote:


The irony of this geekmail is probably only surpassed by the irony of me stirring stuff up by posting this. But this is insane.

Edit - Explanation: I signed up for Heavy is the Hand. I was removed from the game prior to start up with a message from the mod (see attached) that some people had asked me to be removed.


I think this is unacceptable.

If there's someone I don't want to play with, I drop the game. It's not for me to put myself ahead of any other player.


100% this.
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It's definitely worth talking about and Jared has every right to be angry.

The player community put the moderators in a tough spot because they're unable to air grievances directly.

As someone who has been on the receiving end of similar treatment, I don't particularly like it, but it wasn't only my decision (though I don't shirk my part in it).

I have a big problem w/ BGG players here refusing to address issues directly and discuss them like adults to resolve problems. I'm happy to do that with anyone who has an issue with me, but I think a failure to do so leads to these festering wounds and these situations which hurt the community. I know you've all talked about that before.

That said, I think Jared is being unfair when he says his behavior has been impeccable for a year and a half. I saw his behavior in Marvel, and it was not impeccable. It was rude. He lashed out and insulted people under the guise of roleplaying. But it was just a guise, not actual roleplaying. It was an excuse. And there was no apology for it. Just more excuse.

I also saw him recently lash out at another player at the end of the game for how they played they voted (Smugvid). For being tricked or making a bad decision. For losing. Threatening to make their life worse in future games, in anger. Not something I think is appropriate. Not sure how that resolved.

I've also seen him use terminology that makes me think he wants to justify bad behavior, at least in the heat of the moment. Calling people who stand up for others SJWs. I think that terminology is ridiculous, and begets a mindset that is not willing to deal with issues.

I've also seen him wrongly used as a stick by Gelrod ("if you make me mad, I'll get Jared who is WORSE THAN ME to sub in"). I think that's hurtful, but that's between them. I've been hurt when someone says they'll use me as a way to punish people they don't like, even jokingly.

I think everyone here is capable of good and bad. And as someone who often loses his temper and says things I regret, I think there's room for everyone to be more tolerant of those mistakes and and more aware of their own mistakes, and seek forgiveness for their mistakes. This is not directed just at Jared, not in the slightest.

But for today, I was tasked with deciding whether I thought Jared's behavior would make my game better or worse, and in this instance, I thought he'd make it worse especially based on recent behavior I'd seen. And made a decision based on that feeling.

The posting of my private message, the backlash by jared and gelrod, and the reluctance of Gelrod to initially move the discussion away from the game thread despite a number of requests to do so, all reinforced the need for that decision.

I do appreciate you finally heeded my request, Jared.

I hope something good comes of this discussion.

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I think that it is important to separate "Community" from "Gaming Environment."

While they are similar, interconnected, overlapping, and the "Gaming Environment" is the portal through which most tend to enter the "Community," they aren't exactly the same thing (at least, not to everyone).

For the Community, exclusionary behavior should be viewed as unacceptable.

For the WW Games, though, it is a lot more complicated (and, so as not to minimize all parties involved, there are generally at least 4 differently impacted groups: The Person(s) being excluded, the Person(s) requesting the exclusion, Other Non-Affiliated Person(s), and THE MODERATOR.). I actually capitalized THE MODERATOR because I think this sort of situation imperils the experience that the moderator is trying to create (and has often invested a lot of time and effort into bringing to life). Any situation that threatens the experience before the game even begins should be viewed, first, as an affront to the moderator. This places a burden of responsibility on the Person(s) requesting the exclusion to understand that they are immediately at risk of being at fault, regardless of how the Person(s) being excluded react. Of course, the Person(s) being excluded are the next afflicted party, especially if the exclusion is not an isolated/one-time/due-to-extraordinary-circumstances sort of thing. And, finally, the Non-Affiliated Person(s) are also afflicted as the experience they entered into is already tainted.

The reasons for requesting an exclusion may be seen as insurance against what is feared to be greater damage (for the greater good), but it comes at an upfront cost that is itself a significant harm to many involved.
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JaredW25 wrote:
And for the record, I haven't had a "conflict" in a game since Neighbors over a year and a half ago. But this kind of exclusionary crap is worse than anything I've ever done.


I have definitely noticed in a change in both you and gel over the past year. Sometimes, it makes me a bit sad about that too.

But mostly, I'm very proud to consider you both brothers. Your are principled human beings with huge hearts.

I appreciate everything you've done to try to heal wounds in the community whether or not you had a hand in them or not.

It is hard for me to imagine how you feel right now, but I feel for you regardless.
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LJ
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With Trigirl being this lock consensus good read for so many people, I find it really bizarre that she's alive. Just don't lock clear her for tone. There's a threshold where if she's still alive she should probably just be murdalated.
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Slathe wrote:
The player community put the moderators in a tough spot because they're unable to air grievances directly.


Why not?
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ljtrigirl wrote:
Slathe wrote:
The player community put the moderators in a tough spot because they're unable to air grievances directly.


Why not?


That's a good question that I can't answer. I think if people have a problem with others they should tell them.
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JaredW25 wrote:

Threatening? Not really. It was resolved though. And yes I lost my temper, it was in response to another player who in fact lost their temper and ragequit a game. But I didn't see any chastisement of that player (smugvid). That's not justifying my behavior, but the double standard isn't great.


There was probably less chastisment because I recognised what I did was wrong and apologised for it. Does that make it right that it happened? No, of course not, and I made active decisions to try to prevent it happening again.

That's all I'm going to say here, because I don't think my input here otherwise is helpful at this time.
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