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Subject: Single weapon attacks rss

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Frederic Filiatrault
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Hey guys,

On page 22, they say we can use "one of the 2 weapons represented by the Counter" for AGM-65 and AGM-114.

Where do you see 2 weapons? Both counters for me seems to have only 1 weapon on it each.

I always thought one counter: one item, no?

 
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Einmal ist keinmal
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Should be a diff weapon on each counter side.
 
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Trevor Wilson
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Desiderata wrote:
Should be a diff weapon on each counter side.


This.

One weapon type on each side of the counter. You quoted the line from the rules as well - seems pretty clear when I re-read the original post.
 
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Dan Beckler
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apokai wrote:
Hey guys,

On page 22, they say we can use "one of the 2 weapons represented by the Counter" for AGM-65 and AGM-114.

Where do you see 2 weapons? Both counters for me seems to have only 1 weapon on it each.

I always thought one counter: one item, no?



I'm struggling to find the reference, but my impression was that most weapon counters represent a single bomb/missile EXCEPT for the AGM-114, AGM-65, AIM-9 and AIM-92. For those 4 weapon types, the counter (showing a single weapon) actually represents a pair of weapons and I believe the To-Hit numbers reflected a pair of missiles being used to attack the target.

The optional rule on Page 22 then describes the option to fire only a single weapon out of the pair, leaving you with one weapon left (you rotate the counter to reflect that), and both the first and second weapons launches suffer a -2 since you aren't using the pair simultaneously to "bracket" the target.
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Frederic Filiatrault
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wedgeantilles1971 wrote:
apokai wrote:
Hey guys,

On page 22, they say we can use "one of the 2 weapons represented by the Counter" for AGM-65 and AGM-114.

Where do you see 2 weapons? Both counters for me seems to have only 1 weapon on it each.

I always thought one counter: one item, no?



I'm struggling to find the reference, but my impression was that most weapon counters represent a single bomb/missile EXCEPT for the AGM-114, AGM-65, AIM-9 and AIM-92. For those 4 weapon types, the counter (showing a single weapon) actually represents a pair of weapons and I believe the To-Hit numbers reflected a pair of missiles being used to attack the target.

The optional rule on Page 22 then describes the option to fire only a single weapon out of the pair, leaving you with one weapon left (you rotate the counter to reflect that), and both the first and second weapons launches suffer a -2 since you aren't using the pair simultaneously to "bracket" the target.


Exactly. Where the hell is said that the counter of AGM-65, AGM-114, AIM-9 and AIM-92 counts for 2 missiles? Even the text description of these weapons on page 24 and 25 is singular.

Does that mean I roll the dice twice per shot? Can I target 2 units with an AGM-65?

Think I'll just drop this rule. 1 counter == 1 bomb/missile (except for expend/retain)
 
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Frederic Filiatrault
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Desiderata wrote:
Should be a diff weapon on each counter side.


Yeah, sry my post was not clear enough. See Dan Beckler's post, it summarizes what I tried to say
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Dan Beckler
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My guess was that for general play, those 4 weapons were represented as a "double shot" and given increased To-Hit bonuses accordingly most likely due to a desire to avoid fractional weight points and SO points?

In terms of realism, I don't know... I don't recall any actual instances were pilots fired off a pair of AIM-9s - I thought they usually fired one at a time to avoid possible fratricide. I know even less about the standard / actual use of the AGMs... Although, if I ever found my office-working self flying an A-10 when a SAM radar acquired me, I'd likely rapid-fire off every AGM I had at the sucker!
 
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Gerald Reston
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wedgeantilles1971 wrote:
My guess was that for general play, those 4 weapons were represented as a "double shot" and given increased To-Hit bonuses accordingly most likely due to a desire to avoid fractional weight points and SO points?

In terms of realism, I don't know... I don't recall any actual instances were pilots fired off a pair of AIM-9s - I thought they usually fired one at a time to avoid possible fratricide. I know even less about the standard / actual use of the AGMs... Although, if I ever found my office-working self flying an A-10 when a SAM radar acquired me, I'd likely rapid-fire off every AGM I had at the sucker!


The original 1992 TAL got it right with making two weapons per each counter clearly drawn. The AGM-114s in this game look virtually NOTHING like the real Hellfire missile!

What I don't seem to get, is why they'd apply a -1 to Die Rolls with these attacks. NWS also brought this up in his optional Ordinance rules variant... And I'm also removing this modifier as well as creating two separate weight point systems in my own little variant that I plan to publish. (Sorry if I didn't cover this already, Dan)

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1712041/thunderbolt-apache-...
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Rahul Chandra
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apokai wrote:
Hey guys,

On page 22, they say we can use "one of the 2 weapons represented by the Counter" for AGM-65 and AGM-114.

Where do you see 2 weapons? Both counters for me seems to have only 1 weapon on it each.

I always thought one counter: one item, no?



The counter represents two weapons, whether they're drawn on or not. By default you're assumed to expend both when shooting (a single roll), the optional rule allows you to fire singly (for two weaker rolls when needed).
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Gerald Reston
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rchandra wrote:
apokai wrote:
Hey guys,

On page 22, they say we can use "one of the 2 weapons represented by the Counter" for AGM-65 and AGM-114.

Where do you see 2 weapons? Both counters for me seems to have only 1 weapon on it each.

I always thought one counter: one item, no?



The counter represents two weapons, whether they're drawn on or not. By default you're assumed to expend both when shooting (a single roll), the optional rule allows you to fire singly (for two weaker rolls when needed).


Yeah, but the AGM-114's design on the counters makes it look like a green stick without the fins!

I prefer playing the Single Weapon rule with NWS Store's Ordinance Variant, which eliminates the negative modifiers and potential frustrations to be had with those. BTW, Chandra, care to look at my variant as well, please? I plan on having two separate Weight Points for all aircraft to take the Single/Double Weapon attacks into account, mind you.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1712041/thunderbolt-apache-...
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NWS Wargaming Store
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Here you go,

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1304897/optional-payload-ru...

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Christopher Dean
NWS Wargaming Store
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Gerald Reston
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NWS Online Store wrote:
Here you go,

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1304897/optional-payload-ru...

Thanks
Christopher Dean
NWS Wargaming Store


Exactly, Chris. And thank you - It should help others have an easier time with the game if they were to use your rules. BTW, I'm interested in using your Longbow Radar attack rules for my variant. Could it be possible to grant me permission to use it, please?
 
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Dan Beckler
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rchandra wrote:
apokai wrote:
Hey guys,

On page 22, they say we can use "one of the 2 weapons represented by the Counter" for AGM-65 and AGM-114.

Where do you see 2 weapons? Both counters for me seems to have only 1 weapon on it each.

I always thought one counter: one item, no?



The counter represents two weapons, whether they're drawn on or not. By default you're assumed to expend both when shooting (a single roll), the optional rule allows you to fire singly (for two weaker rolls when needed).


Did you happen to find that actually documented in the modern TAL rules? Only reference I could find implies that on p.22 with the Optional rule mentioned by the OP. I don't have the original version of the game, so I wondered if that was the standard there and the assumption just got carried over and not documented.
 
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Rahul Chandra
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wedgeantilles1971 wrote:
rchandra wrote:

The counter represents two weapons, whether they're drawn on or not. By default you're assumed to expend both when shooting (a single roll), the optional rule allows you to fire singly (for two weaker rolls when needed).


Did you happen to find that actually documented in the modern TAL rules? Only reference I could find implies that on p.22 with the Optional rule mentioned by the OP. I don't have the original version of the game, so I wondered if that was the standard there and the assumption just got carried over and not documented.


I only have the 2012 version and haven't specifically checked, but it's completely irrelevant to gameplay outside of the variant rule so I'd see no reason for them to mention it.
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Gerald Reston
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wedgeantilles1971 wrote:
rchandra wrote:
apokai wrote:
Hey guys,

On page 22, they say we can use "one of the 2 weapons represented by the Counter" for AGM-65 and AGM-114.

Where do you see 2 weapons? Both counters for me seems to have only 1 weapon on it each.

I always thought one counter: one item, no?



The counter represents two weapons, whether they're drawn on or not. By default you're assumed to expend both when shooting (a single roll), the optional rule allows you to fire singly (for two weaker rolls when needed).


Did you happen to find that actually documented in the modern TAL rules? Only reference I could find implies that on p.22 with the Optional rule mentioned by the OP. I don't have the original version of the game, so I wondered if that was the standard there and the assumption just got carried over and not documented.


In the original game, each Weapon counter did indeed represent 2 of each Weapon. And further, the Single Weapon Attacks had a -2 Attack Modifier.
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NWS Wargaming Store
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grandvp124_seraph wrote:

Exactly, Chris. And thank you - It should help others have an easier time with the game if they were to use your rules. BTW, I'm interested in using your Longbow Radar attack rules for my variant. Could it be possible to grant me permission to use it, please?


With proper credit given and a link to the original variant for players to view that is fine.

Thanks
Christopher Dean
NWS Wargaming Store
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Gerald Reston
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NWS Online Store wrote:
grandvp124_seraph wrote:

Exactly, Chris. And thank you - It should help others have an easier time with the game if they were to use your rules. BTW, I'm interested in using your Longbow Radar attack rules for my variant. Could it be possible to grant me permission to use it, please?


With proper credit given and a link to the original variant for players to view that is fine.

Thanks
Christopher Dean
NWS Wargaming Store


Thanks!
 
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