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Yardmaster Express» Forums » General

Subject: Reimplements?? rss

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Jerry
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I understand that Yardmaster Express is based on the images/theme of Yardmaster but they don't play alike at all. How can YM:E be a re-implementation of YM?

To me 'Re-implementation' would be like a 'Remake' of a movie. Same movie/game but remade.

What we have here is more like a 'Sequel' of a movie. Same characters/locations/props but whole new story. It would be in the same 'Family' but not a 're-implementation'.

Remake does not equal Sequel.
Re-implementation does not equal Family.

However, I would say Backyard Builders Treehouse does 'Re-implement' Yardmaster Express.

Does this make sense?

For example, is Pandemic: Contagion a re-implementation of Pandemic? No. It is based on Pandemic but is listed as the same Family, not a re-imp.
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'Arctica' Gary
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Seems like a fair argument to me.
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Tim Bueschel
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I agree.
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David Short
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I agree. I was thoroughly confused when the label was first applied when the game was added to BGG's database. I wrote an admin immediately and they informed me of their liberal use of "reimplements". Once they showed me that even a game like San Juan "reimplements" Puerto Rico... I stopped fighting it.

Thanks for the thought though. Happy gaming.

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Laura "lelo" D. Arrowsmith Deddens Gerard
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I saw the same problem with Forbidden Island and Forbidden Desert. The had FD as reimplementing FI. While they are similar, one is not a remake of the other and I got them to change it and created a family for Forbidden.

I suggest that you put in a correction to eliminate the reimplements link.
You can also create a family but there must be at least 3 games/expansions/promos in the family or they won't approve it.
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Jerry
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rainbowrose wrote:
I saw the same problem with Forbidden Island and Forbidden Desert. The had FD as reimplementing FI. While they are similar, one is not a remake of the other and I got them to change it and created a family for Forbidden.

I suggest that you put in a correction to eliminate the reimplements link.
You can also create a family but there must be at least 3 games/expansions/promos in the family or they won't approve it.


I already tried to get the re-imp part fixed but an admin told me to pound sand. That is what spurred this post.

I did try to set the Family but there was no Yardmaster family and I didn't feel like trying to add one thinking admin would just reject it as they would see my ultimate goal

I don't know why this bugs me so much but it does. I guess I was hoping THE game DB on the planet should be accurate.

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Laura "lelo" D. Arrowsmith Deddens Gerard
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I can't even find Yardmaster Express in the database. Isn't Backyard Builders Treehouse an alternative name for Yardmaster Express or vise versa? If so, Yardmaster Express should be listed as an alternative name to Backyard Builders Treehouse.

Or better yet, Yardmaster Express should have it's own entry separate from Backyard Builders Treehouse. And then Backyard Builders Treehouse should be said to reimplement Yardmaster Express. Neither should be said to reimplement Yardmaster but Yardmaster and Yardmaster Express and their expansions and promos should be in a Yardmaster family.

I don't own any of these 3 games so I hesitate to make any changes to the database. But if I had all the particulars I could give it a try.

I have wrangled with the admins about changes before and after a few tries finally got things approved. I just keep putting stuff in the comments and explaining how I have addressed what every issue they had with my previous tries. Anyways, I have been successful in the past and might be able to get it done this time too.
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John Stout
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yea the page seems all wonky, it's the same game with new art. But it either needs multiple versions that are correct or a new page.
 
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Laura "lelo" D. Arrowsmith Deddens Gerard
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It looks like someone is working on the versions. I'm going to give it a little time for that to shake out before I try to make changes myself.
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David Short
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rainbowrose wrote:
It looks like someone is working on the versions. I'm going to give it a little time for that to shake out before I try to make changes myself.


Thank you. I have no idea what is going on with the versions. I was close to contacting an admin about it. But haven't yet.
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andrew enriquez
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something is definitely up, we're looking into this now
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David Short
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cedeliing wrote:
something is definitely up, we're looking into this now

Thanks ACE.

And I'm not sure when you became a BGG Admin... but congrats!
 
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W. Eric Martin
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dshortdesign wrote:
I agree. I was thoroughly confused when the label was first applied when the game was added to BGG's database. I wrote an admin immediately and they informed me of their liberal use of "reimplements". Once they showed me that even a game like San Juan "reimplements" Puerto Rico... I stopped fighting it.

Yes, the idea is to show how one game influenced another when the games in question share designer or publisher (or both), or they are otherwise linked beyond simply someone liking one game and wanting to do something similar. In this case, David Short helped develop Yardmaster, then went on to design Yardmaster Express, noting in his BGG design blog:

Quote:
Yardmaster Express (YmEx) is a very simple drafting game inspired by my love for the original Yardmaster. YmEx captures the essence of the original and stuffs it into a tiny form factor.

That's why we have a reimplements link connecting the two games.
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David Short
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W Eric Martin wrote:
dshortdesign wrote:
I agree. I was thoroughly confused when the label was first applied when the game was added to BGG's database. I wrote an admin immediately and they informed me of their liberal use of "reimplements". Once they showed me that even a game like San Juan "reimplements" Puerto Rico... I stopped fighting it.

Yes, the idea is to show how one game influenced another when the games in question share designer or publisher (or both), or they are otherwise linked beyond simply someone liking one game and wanting to do something similar. In this case, David Short helped develop Yardmaster, then went on to design Yardmaster Express, noting in his BGG design blog:

Quote:
Yardmaster Express (YmEx) is a very simple drafting game inspired by my love for the original Yardmaster. YmEx captures the essence of the original and stuffs it into a tiny form factor.

That's why we have a reimplements link connecting the two games.

Thanks for jumping in here, Eric. Once you explained it to me last year, I fully agreed with the "reimplements" for this situation. Forgive me if I made it sound like I disagreed with it.
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W. Eric Martin
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dshortdesign wrote:
Thanks for jumping in here, Eric. Once you explained it to me last year, I fully agreed with the "reimplements" for this situation. Forgive me if I made it sound like I disagreed with it.

No problem, David! We just keep getting "corrections" on this listing to remove one thing or another that should not be removed, so I wanted to state the reasoning behind this listing once again.
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Mark Boggs
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W Eric Martin wrote:
dshortdesign wrote:
Thanks for jumping in here, Eric. Once you explained it to me last year, I fully agreed with the "reimplements" for this situation. Forgive me if I made it sound like I disagreed with it.

No problem, David! We just keep getting "corrections" on this listing to remove one thing or another that should not be removed, so I wanted to state the reasoning behind this listing once again.


I think the reason you keep getting corrections (I just had one declined) is because someone at the BGG admin level is insisting that Yardmaster Express and Backyard Builders Treehouse are the same game. I have copies of both games and while they share very similar rule sets, the themes are wildly different and the tableau orientation is different. Backyard Builders Treehouse definitely re-implements Yardmaster Express, but they deserve separate listings at least as much as all the games that get different listings for each edition.

Why insist on separate listings? Mostly because having them together is confusing. Neither the base cards, not the expansions are interchangeable. How does a caboose expansion work for Backyard Builders Treehouse? I believe there is enough difference between the two to justify separate listings, where the very close linkage between the games should be noted.
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W. Eric Martin
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FibonacciRocks wrote:
I think the reason you keep getting corrections (I just had one declined) is because someone at the BGG admin level is insisting that Yardmaster Express and Backyard Builders Treehouse are the same game. I have copies of both games and while they share very similar rule sets, the themes are wildly different and the tableau orientation is different. Backyard Builders Treehouse definitely re-implements Yardmaster Express, but they deserve separate listings at least as much as all the games that get different listings for each edition.

Why insist on separate listings? Mostly because having them together is confusing. Neither the base cards, not the expansions are interchangeable. How does a caboose expansion work for Backyard Builders Treehouse? I believe there is enough difference between the two to justify separate listings, where the very close linkage between the games should be noted.

I'm the one at the admin level insisting they're the same game. Many games have been released in new versions with new artwork and new settings, and this is another such pair.
 
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Jerry
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I'm still not getting it.

Why isn't Free Parking a re-implementation of Monopoly?
 
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W. Eric Martin
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Laporbo wrote:
I'm still not getting it.

Why isn't Free Parking a re-implementation of Monopoly?

Using similar artwork is not indicative of a reimplementation.
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Mark Boggs
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W Eric Martin wrote:

I'm the one at the admin level insisting they're the same game. Many games have been released in new versions with new artwork and new settings, and this is another such pair.


Hi Eric, I feel compelled to give it another shot. My primary argument is that the change in theme, name, art & tableau orientation makes Backyard Builders Treehouse into a new game (barely). It seems to me that adding games to the database can be either a restrictive or and inclusive process.

In a restrictive world we want to limit the number of entries, so we collapse border cases into the same entry. The downside here is it leads to confusion (at least for me). When I searched for Yardmaster Express and ended up on an entry for Backyard Builders Treehouse, my first thought was that someone had crossed the entries in the database. That led to me reporting an error and eventually to this conversation.

In an inclusive world we give those border cases their own entry. The downside here is it leads to database bloat.

I submit that relieving confusion is a worthy goal and beg you to relent.
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Jamie A
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W Eric Martin wrote:
I'm the one at the admin level insisting they're the same game. Many games have been released in new versions with new artwork and new settings, and this is another such pair.

What are some of these other pairs? It seems like I should be running into them and yet the confusion I read about is always regarding this particular pair. What are some of these many other games where I'm not noticing the ongoing complaints and confusion?

I don't do much if any challenging of admin decisions, and Eric I'm particularly a 'fan' of yours as such things go, but I'm starting to wonder if this issue is stuck here due to a random bit of intransigence.

 
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Laura "lelo" D. Arrowsmith Deddens Gerard
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I have submitted a new family "Yardmaster" to collect its related games and expansions. This should help people in trying to locate Yardmaster Express.
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Jamie A
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Here's an example I just ran into, the HABA games Tiny Park and Mummy's Treasure. The first two threads I read say they are the same game with a different theme. Being merged then? They certainly look exactly the same. The posters expect they'll be linked as Reimplemented, which is widely thought here to be the standard.
 
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Laura "lelo" D. Arrowsmith Deddens Gerard
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rainbowrose wrote:
I have submitted a new family "Yardmaster" to collect its related games and expansions. This should help people in trying to locate Yardmaster Express.


The family as declined.
 
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James Cobbett
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I tried to edit the title of Backyard Builders Treehouse to Yardmaster Express, completely unaware of this thread. This thread was given as the reason for the edit being declined.

Maybe people keep trying to edit it because it's confusing and supremely dumb. Every time I look at my collection and see Backyard Builders at the top I think 'wtf, I don't even own that... oh right, it's Yardmaster Express'. This is the only game in my collection that has a completely different title to the one I actually own. Even taking into account all that has been given as reasons above, it makes absolutely no sense to me. Why not just have two entries, it's pretty simple. If we're willing to compromise logic, sense and intuitiveness for the sake of database storage, maybe we should rethink this whole 'having a database' thing in the first place.
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