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Subject: Moving patients along rail... rss

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Mathue Faulkner
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Assume cities are connected by rail A -> B -> C. The patient that must be moved is in A. The hospital is in C. There are 3 cubes of the disease color in B. Does an outbreak occur in B? Or does the patient simply pass through B and end up in C w/o any outbreak?

Edit: 2 -> 3


My example was poor, but as someone else pointed out, there is a valid example for my question:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24976167#24976167
 
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mfaulk80 wrote:
Assume cities are connected by rail A -> B -> C. The patient that must be moved is in A. The hospital is in C. There are 2 cubes of the disease color in B. Does an outbreak occur in B? Or does the patient simply pass through B and end up in C w/o any outbreak?


Perhaps I'm reading your example incorrectly, but the closest patient to a hospital moves to it. So, if B is closer to the Hospital than A, then the A patient wouldn't move through B to get to C.

Perhaps I missed something in your example.

Either way, an outbreak only occurs when a 4th cube is added, not a 3rd.
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Mathue Faulkner
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WooHoo1 wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Assume cities are connected by rail A -> B -> C. The patient that must be moved is in A. The hospital is in C. There are 2 cubes of the disease color in B. Does an outbreak occur in B? Or does the patient simply pass through B and end up in C w/o any outbreak?


Perhaps I'm reading your example incorrectly, but the closest patient to a hospital moves to it. So, if B is closer to the Hospital than A, then the A patient wouldn't move through B to get to C.

Perhaps I missed something in your example.

Sorry, A, B, and C are cities connected by Rails. There is not a patient in City B. There is patient in City A, and that is the only patient within a range of two. That is the patient that must be moved. Since those cities are connected by rail, the patient will move from A to C via B. My question really comes down to: When a patient moves via rail, does he count against potential outbreaks in cities that are simply passed through? Or does it only matter in the city where the patient stops?
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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WooHoo1 wrote:


Either way, an outbreak only occurs when a 4th cube is added, not a 3rd.

Yes, my mistake. It's been a long week.
 
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mfaulk80 wrote:
WooHoo1 wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Assume cities are connected by rail A -> B -> C. The patient that must be moved is in A. The hospital is in C. There are 2 cubes of the disease color in B. Does an outbreak occur in B? Or does the patient simply pass through B and end up in C w/o any outbreak?


Perhaps I'm reading your example incorrectly, but the closest patient to a hospital moves to it. So, if B is closer to the Hospital than A, then the A patient wouldn't move through B to get to C.

Perhaps I missed something in your example.

Sorry, A, B, and C are cities connected by Rails. There is not a patient in City B. There is patient in City A, and that is the only patient within a range of two. That is the patient that must be moved. Since those cities are connected by rail, the patient will move from A to C via B. My question really comes down to: When a patient moves via rail, does he count against potential outbreaks in cities that are simply passed through? Or does it only matter in the city where the patient stops?


Perhaps I have the rule incorrect, but I believe that you only move a patient closest to the hospital. As such, a patient from farther away would never travel through another city with patients on its way to the hospital.

Following the rules on this, an outbreak or "overrun" hospital only occurs where the patient stops.
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Byron S
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The rulebook says

MOVE BY TRAIN
Move to a city connected by a continuous chain
of railroad tokens.


I'd say it moves directly to the destination.
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Mathue Faulkner
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WooHoo1 wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
WooHoo1 wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Assume cities are connected by rail A -> B -> C. The patient that must be moved is in A. The hospital is in C. There are 2 cubes of the disease color in B. Does an outbreak occur in B? Or does the patient simply pass through B and end up in C w/o any outbreak?


Perhaps I'm reading your example incorrectly, but the closest patient to a hospital moves to it. So, if B is closer to the Hospital than A, then the A patient wouldn't move through B to get to C.

Perhaps I missed something in your example.

Sorry, A, B, and C are cities connected by Rails. There is not a patient in City B. There is patient in City A, and that is the only patient within a range of two. That is the patient that must be moved. Since those cities are connected by rail, the patient will move from A to C via B. My question really comes down to: When a patient moves via rail, does he count against potential outbreaks in cities that are simply passed through? Or does it only matter in the city where the patient stops?


Perhaps I have the rule incorrect, but I believe that you only move a patient closest to the hospital. As such, a patient from farther away would never travel through another city with patients on its way to the hospital.

Following the rules on this, an outbreak or "overrun" hospital only occurs where the patient stops.

In my example, there isn't another patient in the vicinity. The only patient is in city A. The question isn't which patient is moved. That is assumed information in the example. The question is whether a patient that moves via rails counts towards Outbreaks in cities that he simply moves through...
 
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Byron S
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C r X r B
r /
X /
r X
X /
r /
A


(Cities A, B, C, Xs, rails r, regular paths /)

In this situation, B is closer than C, but will travel by rail through C in order to travel to A in one move, rather than two moves along the regular path.
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runtsta wrote:
C r X r B
r /
X /
r X
X /
r /
A


(Cities A, B, C, Xs, rails r, regular paths /)

In this situation, B is closer than C, but will travel by rail through C in order to travel to A in one move, rather than two moves along the regular path.


Agreed. But if there was a patient in C, it would be moved first.

Following the rules for moving Patients, I'm not sure it's possible to move a patient through a city that has other patients of the same color...as those patients would need to be moved to the hospital first.

Maybe it's getting late, and I'm missing a simple detail -- or worse -- have been playing the Moving Patients Variant incorrectly.
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This would indicate to me that a patient cannot move through another city with patients of the same color, as the patients closest to the hospital would move towards it first.
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Mathue Faulkner
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WooHoo1 wrote:
runtsta wrote:
C r X r B
r /
X /
r X
X /
r /
A


(Cities A, B, C, Xs, rails r, regular paths /)

In this situation, B is closer than C, but will travel by rail through C in order to travel to A in one move, rather than two moves along the regular path.


Agreed. But if there was a patient in C, it would be moved first.

Following the rules for moving Patients, I'm not sure it's possible to move a patient through a city that has other patients of the same color...as those patients would need to be moved to the hospital first.

Maybe it's getting late, and I'm missing a simple detail -- or worse -- have been playing the Moving Patients Variant incorrectly.

No.

I'm an idiot. I'd delete this thread if BGG easily allowed it. I'm just about to play the Patients scenario, and all of this was hypothetical. You're right. I'm the one who wasn't thinking clearly.... Of course, my example doesn't make sense because the patient in A couldn't be the patient that has to move.

Thank you! Nothing to see here.
 
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It's all good...cool
 
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Byron S
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WooHoo1 wrote:
runtsta wrote:
C r X r B
r /
X /
r X
X /
r /
A


(Cities A, B, C, Xs, rails r, regular paths /)

In this situation, B is closer than C, but will travel by rail through C in order to travel to A in one move, rather than two moves along the regular path.


Agreed. But if there was a patient in C, it would be moved first.

Following the rules for moving Patients, I'm not sure it's possible to move a patient through a city that has other patients of the same color...as those patients would need to be moved to the hospital first.

Maybe it's getting late, and I'm missing a simple detail -- or worse -- have been playing the Moving Patients Variant incorrectly.

No it wouldn't, because it's 3 cities away, while B is only 2 cities away. You don't count rails when calculating distances, but you do for moving them to the hospitals.

It's a weird case, to be sure, but it fits the scenario described. Regardless, I think the patient from B would move directly to A, and not cause C to outbreak because it was just passing through.
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runtsta wrote:
WooHoo1 wrote:
runtsta wrote:
C r X r B
r /
X /
r X
X /
r /
A


(Cities A, B, C, Xs, rails r, regular paths /)

In this situation, B is closer than C, but will travel by rail through C in order to travel to A in one move, rather than two moves along the regular path.


Agreed. But if there was a patient in C, it would be moved first.

Following the rules for moving Patients, I'm not sure it's possible to move a patient through a city that has other patients of the same color...as those patients would need to be moved to the hospital first.

Maybe it's getting late, and I'm missing a simple detail -- or worse -- have been playing the Moving Patients Variant incorrectly.

No it wouldn't, because it's 3 cities away, while B is only 2 cities away. You don't count rails when calculating distances, but you do for moving them to the hospitals.

It's a weird case, to be sure, but it fits the scenario described. Regardless, I think the patient from B would move directly to A, and not cause C to outbreak because it was just passing through.

Actually, that's all true. My example was bad, but your example would be completely valid.
 
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Yup, it's an odd case, and not a scenario I've come across in the 7-8 plays so far. But you're correct, it is a possibility.

And I would agree that no outbreak would occur when passing through a city. cool
 
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Geoff M
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heh, I had to read this a couple of times to understand the setup. Got it though. And yeah I'd agree that B using the rail to travel through C to A wouldn't cause an outbreak in C.

Two ways I'd interpret the situation:

* Patient B is sitting on a train zipping through C, presumably, as opposed to walking around, or staying potentially at the same hotel overnight or same hospital as the 3 patients No outbreak.

* If you're moving through a city by road, you are using single actions to move from one city to the next, for x actions. When by rail, it's a single action from the start city to the destination, no stops in between. So I'd read it more like - if a patient's individual action (move) ends on a city and causes it to be the 4th patient, then an outbreak occurs before the next action (move). This doesn't happen by rail (unless of course the destination city already has 3 patients and this becomes the 4th).
 
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Tobias
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And what about this situation (updated, I forgot an X before):

H
r
X - X - 1
r |
X r X r 3


In this case X is a city without cubes, H is a hospital, 1 and 3 are cities with 1 and 3 disease cubes respectively, r are rails and - are paths without rails.

In this case the 1 cube is closer to the hospital than the 3 cubes but it will move toward the 3-cubes city because this is the faster way to the hospital.

So in this case an outbreak would occur, right?

Example on the board: Hospital in Santiago de Compostela, rails from there to Caceres via Vigo, Porto and Coimbra, 3 cubes in Caceres, 1 cube in Salamanca.
 
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therobbot wrote:
And what about this situation:

H
r
X - - 1
r \
X r X r 3


In this case X is a city without cubes, H is a hospital, 1 and 3 are cities with 1 and 3 disease cubes respectively, r are rails and - are paths without rails.

In this case the 1 cube is closer to the hospital than the 3 cubes but it will move toward the 3-cubes city because this is the faster way to the hospital.

So in this case an outbreak would occur, right?

Example on the board: Hospital in Santiago de Compostela, rails from there to Caceres via Vigo, Porto and Coimbra, 3 cubes in Caceres, 1 cube in Salamanca.

Moving to the 3 cube city isn't faster. It takes 2 moves to get to the hospital in each direction. Also, the rule specifically states that the patient must move toward the hospital. Despite the rails, the 3 cube city is definitely not toward the hospital.

The patient should move to the X city adjacent to the hospital.
 
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runtsta wrote:
therobbot wrote:
And what about this situation:

H
r
X - - 1
r \
X r X r 3


In this case X is a city without cubes, H is a hospital, 1 and 3 are cities with 1 and 3 disease cubes respectively, r are rails and - are paths without rails.

In this case the 1 cube is closer to the hospital than the 3 cubes but it will move toward the 3-cubes city because this is the faster way to the hospital.

So in this case an outbreak would occur, right?

Example on the board: Hospital in Santiago de Compostela, rails from there to Caceres via Vigo, Porto and Coimbra, 3 cubes in Caceres, 1 cube in Salamanca.

Moving to the 3 cube city isn't faster. It takes 2 moves to get to the hospital in each direction. Also, the rule specifically states that the patient must move toward the hospital. Despite the rails, the 3 cube city is definitely not toward the hospital.

The patient should move to the X city adjacent to the hospital.


No, there are two steps from 1 to X so it takes 3 steps in this direction compared to two steps when going via 3. I forgot an X in this direction. Here's the correct version:


H
r
X - X - 1
r |
X r X r 3


I think your interpretation of "towards" is not clear from the rules. It explicitly says "When moving, patients will move the fastest way they can".


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therobbot wrote:
runtsta wrote:
therobbot wrote:
And what about this situation:

H
r
X - - 1
r \
X r X r 3


In this case X is a city without cubes, H is a hospital, 1 and 3 are cities with 1 and 3 disease cubes respectively, r are rails and - are paths without rails.

In this case the 1 cube is closer to the hospital than the 3 cubes but it will move toward the 3-cubes city because this is the faster way to the hospital.

So in this case an outbreak would occur, right?

Example on the board: Hospital in Santiago de Compostela, rails from there to Caceres via Vigo, Porto and Coimbra, 3 cubes in Caceres, 1 cube in Salamanca.

Moving to the 3 cube city isn't faster. It takes 2 moves to get to the hospital in each direction. Also, the rule specifically states that the patient must move toward the hospital. Despite the rails, the 3 cube city is definitely not toward the hospital.

The patient should move to the X city adjacent to the hospital.


No, there are two steps from 1 to X so it takes 3 steps in this direction compared to two steps when going via 3. I forgot an X in this direction. Here's the correct version:


H
r
X - X - 1
r |
X r X r 3


I think your interpretation of "towards" is not clear from the rules. It explicitly says "When moving, patients will move the fastest way they can".

That extra X makes a big difference!

Regardless, I'd still argue they should move along the roads. My interpretation would be that the patient should always move so that they are closer (by connections, not travel time) to their destination after the move, since that is what determines which patient moves first.

I can understand some people might interpret it the other way, but that's what makes the most sense to me. I'd be happy to hear an official ruling one way or the other, it's definitely an odd case.
 
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Tobias
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I wouldn't interpret the rules like you do. I think if that was the case it should read that patients will move along a path that brings them nearest to the hospital ignoring rails. But it explicit talks about the fastest path and that rails should be taken into account. I agree that an official answer would be nice, though.

Also it seems clear to me that choice of patient and choice of route are two different things that follow a different logic. Choice of patient is "nearest", choice of route is "fastest".

So for example in this case, patient A would move even though patient B would be faster at the hospital:


H-X-A
r
X
r
X
r
B
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runtsta wrote:
therobbot wrote:
runtsta wrote:
therobbot wrote:
And what about this situation:

H
r
X - - 1
r \
X r X r 3


In this case X is a city without cubes, H is a hospital, 1 and 3 are cities with 1 and 3 disease cubes respectively, r are rails and - are paths without rails.

In this case the 1 cube is closer to the hospital than the 3 cubes but it will move toward the 3-cubes city because this is the faster way to the hospital.

So in this case an outbreak would occur, right?

Example on the board: Hospital in Santiago de Compostela, rails from there to Caceres via Vigo, Porto and Coimbra, 3 cubes in Caceres, 1 cube in Salamanca.

Moving to the 3 cube city isn't faster. It takes 2 moves to get to the hospital in each direction. Also, the rule specifically states that the patient must move toward the hospital. Despite the rails, the 3 cube city is definitely not toward the hospital.

The patient should move to the X city adjacent to the hospital.


No, there are two steps from 1 to X so it takes 3 steps in this direction compared to two steps when going via 3. I forgot an X in this direction. Here's the correct version:


H
r
X - X - 1
r |
X r X r 3


I think your interpretation of "towards" is not clear from the rules. It explicitly says "When moving, patients will move the fastest way they can".

That extra X makes a big difference!

Regardless, I'd still argue they should move along the roads. My interpretation would be that the patient should always move so that they are closer (by connections, not travel time) to their destination after the move, since that is what determines which patient moves first.

I can understand some people might interpret it the other way, but that's what makes the most sense to me. I'd be happy to hear an official ruling one way or the other, it's definitely an odd case.


This is an interesting scenario, and it'd be good to have an official ruling...but who knows if Matt will chime in again to answer additional FAQ.

The rules are, perhaps unintentionally, vague for this scenario. On the one hand, the rules state it move towards the hospital. On the other, the rules state to move the fastest route.

If I were pressed to vote, I'd vote in the same way Byron did -- A Patient should be closer to the hospital (by number of line segments) after moving.

That said, I can see how, thematically speaking, the other path would be taken. A Patient would want to get to the hospital as quickly as possible, so if they had to move away from the hospital to catch a train to get there more quickly, they probably would.


But without an official ruling, I'd vote they should be closer to the hospital by number of line segments after moving.

Edit: Spelling & Grammar
 
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Hm, it really makes a big difference sometimes. We didn't come across a case where an outbreak occurs but we had some occasions where this rule would make a difference between a patient taking two rounds to get to the hospital vs. taking 4 or more rounds, so our interpretation of the rule definitely makes the game harder.

I posted it in the FAQ. If Matt doesn't answer I might drop him a message at some point.
 
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