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Subject: Obamacare Debate: Sanders & Cruz rss

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Mac Mcleod
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Chris Binkowski
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I'm having a hard time figuring out the purpose of this debate without having watched it.

Also - I don't want to watch it.
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Mac Mcleod
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Sarxis wrote:
I'm having a hard time figuring out the purpose of this debate without having watched it.

Also - I don't want to watch it.


Do you want to be ignorant of the issues?

Do you want to only see things from the left or the right?

Both cruz and sanders make decent points. There is no 'winner' or 'loser' and while IMHO, cruz is a bit shady with some lawyerish language (focusing on 'cancel' to try and hide 'not having insurance in the first place' and 'rationing' to cover the fact that the u.s. alternative is 'no health care at all for millions of americans and 20% unable to buy the pills their doctors recommend). But if you watch it, you might have opinions on where sanders is being unrealistic as well (I do but I'll leave that for you to find yourself by actually watching the thing and learning a bit).

And the american citizens who ask tough questions of both senators have good points too.

Democracy depends on an informed population who actually votes.

I will say the debate is more in the past american tradition of political discourse than the current mode. Both senators were polite to each other while disagreeing strongly.
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Pontifex Maximus
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maxo-texas wrote:


Looks like an interesting debate, but will have to forgo until tomorrow.

But a comment I just have to make. To me it looks like Bernie is thinking "Dear God, I just want to smack this twerp so badly"

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Jason Reid
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Sarxis wrote:
I'm having a hard time figuring out the purpose of this debate without having watched it.


My guess is that it's two people actually taking their office as US Senators seriously, in an attempt to simply life the level of public discourse.

Now I'll go watch it to see if I'm right.

EDIT: Man, Bernie should have thanked Cruz at the beginning.
 
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Jason Reid
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This has actually been a lot of fun to watch. It's pretty damn refreshing watching debate between two people who aren't actually running against each other for anything, looking to trap the other in some soundbite for a TV ad.
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Chris
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I watched this the night it happened. I was surprised, almost delighted, to hear actual debate, not just heavy politics and sound bites.

I would say that any reasonable person who watches would hear positives and negatives from both sides. Each senator had optimistic-sounding visions of what their solution could provide, and the other was able to poke holes in that rosy outlook with some real-world examples.

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Jason Reid
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maxo-texas wrote:
while IMHO, cruz is a bit shady with some lawyerish language (focusing on 'cancel' to try and hide 'not having insurance in the first place' and 'rationing' to cover the fact that the u.s. alternative is 'no health care at all for millions of americans and 20% unable to buy the pills their doctors recommend).


Bernie did an ok job of catching Cruz on the issue of his using the word "cancel" (as in "Insurance companies won't be able to cancel your insurance because you develop a condition" as opposed to "Insurance companies won't be able to deny you insurance because you have a condition", which is Bernie's position). I thought he could have done better than simply provide an example of someone getting sick and then seeking coverage after the fact.

IIRC, and to be fair I'm sketchy on this, in the pre-ACA days, if you changed jobs and therefore changed insurance, there was no way to guarantee that you'd be covered by the new insurance for any pre-existing condition. So getting sick essentially trapped you in your job. That's pretty shitty way to stagnate the workforce and is a much better example to bring up, because it doesn't focus on somebody "irresponsibly" not having insurance before they get sick.
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jasonwocky wrote:

IIRC, and to be fair I'm sketchy on this, in the pre-ACA days, if you changed jobs and therefore changed insurance, there was no way to guarantee that you'd be covered by the new insurance for any pre-existing condition. So getting sick essentially trapped you in your job. That's pretty shitty way to stagnate the workforce and is a much better example to bring up, because it doesn't focus on somebody "irresponsibly" not having insurance before they get sick.


You remember this correctly. One of the pro-business/pro-economics arguments for ACA was that a would-be entrepreneur who is locked into his/her job because of the insurance and a pre-existing condition would now be free to quit the job to launch their new business, knowing they could still buy insurance to cover them.
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wifwendell wrote:
jasonwocky wrote:

IIRC, and to be fair I'm sketchy on this, in the pre-ACA days, if you changed jobs and therefore changed insurance, there was no way to guarantee that you'd be covered by the new insurance for any pre-existing condition. So getting sick essentially trapped you in your job. That's pretty shitty way to stagnate the workforce and is a much better example to bring up, because it doesn't focus on somebody "irresponsibly" not having insurance before they get sick.


You remember this correctly. One of the pro-business/pro-economics arguments for ACA was that a would-be entrepreneur who is locked into his/her job because of the insurance and a pre-existing condition would now be free to quit the job to launch their new business, knowing they could still buy insurance to cover them.


I have always pointed out that this unlocking of talent, providing them with their mobility to leave an employer that doesn't have the shackles via health care, is a major reasons why Republicans and their business backers hate the ACA.

The number of highly talented employees that I have had the privilege to work with over the years, employees that you would think had unfettered access to the employment market (go where they wanted), typically stayed put with the current employer due to one reason: Health Insurance.

Imagine what the back-benchers' situation was? More stratified in their positions.

As long as health insurance is directly wired to an employer, there is no true economic freedom in this country. I'm assuming that many conservatives and free-marketers realize this, but their proclivity to assist whiny-ass business interests over-rule their attachment to philosophy.

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Sarxis wrote:
I'm having a hard time figuring out the purpose of this debate without having watched it.

Also - I don't want to watch it.


Where do you acquire your health insurance?
 
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Jason Reid
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darthhugo wrote:
I have always pointed out that this unlocking of talent, providing them with their mobility to leave an employer that doesn't have the shackles via health care, is a major reasons why Republicans and their business backers hate the ACA.


While I agree wholeheartedly with your view of the effects of employer-based insurance, especially when it's deniable to those with pre-existing conditions (or who have family members with them), I think you're attributing too much deviousness to Republicans here.

Many, many, many businesses hate employer-based health insurance. It's one more thing to manage, and it's difficult to compete on this axis with bigger companies who can provide better benefits.

And sure, maybe big companies like the fact that insurance can function as desk handcuffs, but they must also realize that those same handcuffs can interfere with their ability to attract talent from their competitors.

In effect, I think employer-based insurance is a big fat hairy mess that no one actually likes. It's just the only thing that so far has been at least barely effective and barely reconcilable with typical American ideologies about how "private" = good and "government" = bad.
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If you see a transcript of this event please let me know, I haven't seen one yet after some light googling.
 
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Terwox wrote:
If you see a transcript of this event please let me know, I haven't seen one yet after some light googling.


"transcript of sanders cruz health care debate on cnn"

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1702/07/se.01.html
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Kumitedad wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:


Looks like an interesting debate, but will have to forgo until tomorrow.

But a comment I just have to make. To me it looks like Bernie is thinking "Dear God, I just want to smack this twerp so badly"



It's nice to know that at least one person on the left can show restraint.
 
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GameCrossing wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:


Looks like an interesting debate, but will have to forgo until tomorrow.

But a comment I just have to make. To me it looks like Bernie is thinking "Dear God, I just want to smack this twerp so badly"



It's nice to know that at least one person on the left can show restraint.


 
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Kumitedad wrote:


Looks like an interesting debate, but will have to forgo until tomorrow.

But a comment I just have to make. To me it looks like Bernie is thinking "Dear God, I just want to smack this twerp so badly"

GameCrossing wrote:


It's nice to know that at least one person on the left can show restraint.
shake "Independent" isn't LEFT unless you're some 'ignorant pedant' 'labelist'! oh, then nevermind... whistle
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Junior McSpiffy
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GROGnads wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:


Looks like an interesting debate, but will have to forgo until tomorrow.

But a comment I just have to make. To me it looks like Bernie is thinking "Dear God, I just want to smack this twerp so badly"

GameCrossing wrote:


It's nice to know that at least one person on the left can show restraint.
shake "Independent" isn't LEFT unless you're some 'ignorant pedant' 'labelist'! oh, then nevermind... whistle


Point taken. Bernie is independent, further reducing the number of people on the left who can constrain their urge to punch people. Your correction is immensely appreciated.
 
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In TEXAS then NAZIS were 'needed' "punching" & "killing" since; just because, and especially Chicago kinds! angry
 
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jasonwocky wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
I have always pointed out that this unlocking of talent, providing them with their mobility to leave an employer that doesn't have the shackles via health care, is a major reasons why Republicans and their business backers hate the ACA.


While I agree wholeheartedly with your view of the effects of employer-based insurance, especially when it's deniable to those with pre-existing conditions (or who have family members with them), I think you're attributing too much deviousness to Republicans here.

Many, many, many businesses hate employer-based health insurance. It's one more thing to manage, and it's difficult to compete on this axis with bigger companies who can provide better benefits.

And sure, maybe big companies like the fact that insurance can function as desk handcuffs, but they must also realize that those same handcuffs can interfere with their ability to attract talent from their competitors.

In effect, I think employer-based insurance is a big fat hairy mess that no one actually likes. It's just the only thing that so far has been at least barely effective and barely reconcilable with typical American ideologies about how "private" = good and "government" = bad.


You raise some great points on the "sliced equally by the blade" theorem in relation to competition. But health insurance is a perk, like any bennie, so it's genesis began from a point of competition - but as you state, has probably morphed into an Ogre that just is hard to control.

 
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