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Subject: Raiding, At War, Enmity, and The Patriot (spoilers) rss

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Teena H
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This post contains spoilers because it includes an advisor that comes out a few games in, we had a debate about how to handle the return enmity from at war space after a successful raid on someone else.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I had 1 enmity token of another player in my At War With section, I also had The Patriot whose text says "When Raiding a more prominent province you are At War With, you only pay one enmity for the raid."

Does this mean, I pay them one of my enmity tokens, or I can return theirs as per the rules clarification set out in this other thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22580109#22580109

One of the people in my campaign argues that I can't return an enmity when using that power because the card says give an enmity, I disagree because I believe the overall rule of returning the token counts.
 
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Rich P
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
The Patriot's ability is supposed to be a benefit not a penalty. I'd say returning one of your opponent's enmity tokens would be fine. The cost of a raid with the Patriot is 1 Enmity, whether that's in the form of you giving out one of your own tokens or returning one of an opponent's.
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Teena H
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Their argument is:
The rules on page 11 in the Enmity section say 'give' but the card says 'pay', page 19 of the rules says 'put' which IMHO could mean either. They don't see 'give' and 'pay' as the same terminology - and argue that I have to pay one of my own vs one of theirs.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Any time you have the enmity of another province and you raid that province, you first give back their enmity token(s) in your At War With section before giving any of your own enmity. That doesn't change with The Patriot.
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Darren Nakamura
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Actually this thread brings up a new question for me, and it might be particularly pertinent in the next game my group plays (if The Patriot shows up).

Box 4 spoilers + The Patriot
Spoiler (click to reveal)
If I conquer a colony with the Patriot, do I only pay back one enmity because that colony is owned by that province, or do you think the "when raiding a more prominent province" clause specifically refers to raiding a site on an opponent's province board?
 
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j n
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Dexter345 wrote:
Actually this thread brings up a new question for me, and it might be particularly pertinent in the next game my group plays (if The Patriot shows up).

Box 4 spoilers + The Patriot
Spoiler (click to reveal)
If I conquer a colony with the Patriot, do I only pay back one enmity because that colony is owned by that province, or do you think the "when raiding a more prominent province" clause specifically refers to raiding a site on an opponent's province board?


I think it applies no matter what thing belonging to that province you raid.
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j n
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Glompbot wrote:
Their argument is:
The rules on page 11 in the Enmity section say 'give' but the card says 'pay', page 19 of the rules says 'put' which IMHO could mean either. They don't see 'give' and 'pay' as the same terminology - and argue that I have to pay one of my own vs one of theirs.


Just as fair warning, Seafall may be difficult to play with such a group. The rules are not written with the clear and consistent terminology they may be used to.

In this case, woodnoggin has it right.
 
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Troy Carpenter
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Dexter345 wrote:
Actually this thread brings up a new question for me, and it might be particularly pertinent in the next game my group plays (if The Patriot shows up).

Box 4 spoilers + The Patriot
Spoiler (click to reveal)
If I conquer a colony with the Patriot, do I only pay back one enmity because that colony is owned by that province, or do you think the "when raiding a more prominent province" clause specifically refers to raiding a site on an opponent's province board?




This actually happened to me.

Box 4 spoilers
Spoiler (click to reveal)
On the next game after I toppled and acquired Ker, my buddy came at me and raided it totally unexpectedly (his ship had 3 raid and he's typically a merchant - no enmity on any island). I had assumed he wouldn't do it because of the enmity it required but I was distracted and didn't notice the Patriot rallying some troops and before I knew it, he took my colony and left me only one enmity -- the one I gave him at the beginning of the game as a Prince penalty! ;(
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Teena H
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Please don't post spoilers outside of tags!
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Teena H
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lactamaeon wrote:
Glompbot wrote:
Their argument is:
The rules on page 11 in the Enmity section say 'give' but the card says 'pay', page 19 of the rules says 'put' which IMHO could mean either. They don't see 'give' and 'pay' as the same terminology - and argue that I have to pay one of my own vs one of theirs.


Just as fair warning, Seafall may be difficult to play with such a group. The rules are not written with the clear and consistent terminology they may be used to.

In this case, woodnoggin has it right.


His opinion is the rules were written with crayon... and we are constantly checking all rule issues up online. Which I don't mind, I recall having to do this with Pandemic Legacy as well.

There was no previous clarification for this point so I created this thread, but he believes my question is written very biased and its leading you all to answer in my favour.

He wants the developer or publisher to reply with a clarification.
 
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anthony hallett
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Dexter345 wrote:
Any time you have the enmity of another province and you raid that province, you first give back their enmity token(s) in your At War With section before giving any of your own enmity. That doesn't change with The Patriot.



This was how i read the card as well.


This is a clear point by point statement of what happened in the game above.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Player A - Had 1 enmity on there at war section belonging to player B.
Player A - Raided Player B and destroyed a building -
This costs 3 Enmity.
Player A had The Patriot whose text says "When Raiding a more prominent province you are At War With, you only pay one enmity for the raid."
Player A wanted to pay the 3 Enmity by returning 1 at war token.
Player B Thinks that Player A should return the 1 Enmity, then still owing 2 Enmity Player A can use the patriot to pay 1 Enmity instead of the 2 remaining.


This is what happened Player A got there way and player B said they would look into it later because the speed of the game needs to keep moving and the relevance was 1 enmity being added to the board later and didn’t really matter at that point.

player A wrote the question above on board game geek but didn’t clearly explain it all.


If only 1 Enmity was to be return and that was the total ofcourse you wouldn’t pay an extra 1 with the patriot because the debt is clear - and in the case of only 1 enmity token as the question above says this doesn’t make sense at all, because if you only had to place 1 enmity total you wouldn’t use the patriot.

Also there is nowhere in the rules that can clearly point this out because this is not a case of the rules the answer is " the creator didn’t mean for return and pay enmity to be 2 different things and they should have used the same word or they did want it to be 2 different things"

This is why player B wanted to message Rob rather than ask board game geek.

Maybe they do want these to be 2 different things because rolling around with a stack of enmity attacking people and only returning 1 enmity each time really would miss up the game if you built the system for it so this may be the reason it is written as return and pay as 2 separate things.

 
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Rich P
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I believe the Patriot's ability replaces all enmity costs for the raid, but that's just my and my group's opinion. It sounds like you'll be happier with an official response, so you should email Rob Daviau. Please post his reply here when you get it.

I don't think the Patriot is too strong, even under these rules, as you can only use him once per year. In our game, he has been upgraded to have the best tax bonus of any of our advisors so he's more often used for that ability.
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j n
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Glompbot wrote:


There was no previous clarification for this point so I created this thread, but he believes my question is written very biased and its leading you all to answer in my favour.


For what it's worth, I did not answer based on the phrasing of your question at all. This is how I believe the Patriot should work based on my own reading of the rules and the Patriot card.

The rules are written in a "natural language" style rather than a more precise, clinical style. The terms "put", "place", "give", and "pay" can all be used to describe the same action. In this case, they are.

Glompbot wrote:
He wants the developer or publisher to reply with a clarification.


Here is an article from the developer about enmity:

http://www.plaidhatgames.com/news/719

In it, he uses the terms "payed" and "given" interchangeably, as if they mean that same thing.
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Darren Nakamura
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ranggor wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
Any time you have the enmity of another province and you raid that province, you first give back their enmity token(s) in your At War With section before giving any of your own enmity. That doesn't change with The Patriot.



This was how i read the card as well.


This is a clear point by point statement of what happened in the game above.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Player A - Had 1 enmity on there at war section belonging to player B.
Player A - Raided Player B and destroyed a building -
This costs 3 Enmity.
Player A had The Patriot whose text says "When Raiding a more prominent province you are At War With, you only pay one enmity for the raid."
Player A wanted to pay the 3 Enmity by returning 1 at war token.
Player B Thinks that Player A should return the 1 Enmity, then still owing 2 Enmity Player A can use the patriot to pay 1 Enmity instead of the 2 remaining.


This is what happened Player A got there way and player B said they would look into it later because the speed of the game needs to keep moving and the relevance was 1 enmity being added to the board later and didn’t really matter at that point.

player A wrote the question above on board game geek but didn’t clearly explain it all.


If only 1 Enmity was to be return and that was the total ofcourse you wouldn’t pay an extra 1 with the patriot because the debt is clear - and in the case of only 1 enmity token as the question above says this doesn’t make sense at all, because if you only had to place 1 enmity total you wouldn’t use the patriot.

Also there is nowhere in the rules that can clearly point this out because this is not a case of the rules the answer is " the creator didn’t mean for return and pay enmity to be 2 different things and they should have used the same word or they did want it to be 2 different things"

This is why player B wanted to message Rob rather than ask board game geek.

Maybe they do want these to be 2 different things because rolling around with a stack of enmity attacking people and only returning 1 enmity each time really would miss up the game if you built the system for it so this may be the reason it is written as return and pay as 2 separate things.



Let me guess... you're Player B?

I still think Player A is correct in this case. I get the desire to have Rob or J.R. comment, because I have a rules lawyer in my group too. That said, I think we have a good case with the rules as written without having to go to them.

Here's the order of operations:
A raids B successfully
A owes B enmity for the raid
Since A is lower rank, Patriot's ability reduces the amount owed (or paid, or given) to 1
Before giving any of his own enmity, A must return B's enmity in his At War With section (SeaFall Rule Book Page 11, "Giving Enmity Tokens")
A gives B's enmity token back to B, and the debt (or payment, or gift?) is settled

Is it a powerful advisor to have? Perhaps in the hands of the Lord/Lady or the Baron/Baroness, who can basically get one free raid on the Prince/Princess and Duke/Duchess per game. Like woodnoggin says, it's not too strong because it can only be used once per year (so 1-3 times per game, depending on how fast your group is) (or more if the person with the Patriot also happens to grab the Bosun), but additionally, that it's only useful for the people who are already trailing. It's SeaFall's analog to Mario Kart's blue shell. These people are already behind. They get a little something to help catch up.
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Anthony K
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ranggor wrote:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Maybe they do want these to be 2 different things because rolling around with a stack of enmity attacking people and only returning 1 enmity each time really would miss up the game if you built the system for it so this may be the reason it is written as return and pay as 2 separate things.



They would only get a stack if you had already attacked them. Even in this case, Player A would give you the only token of yours he had left, therefore no longer being at war with you and no longer able to reduce the amount of enmity he needs to give you.

On a personal note, I find your attitude about this to be pretty upsetting and were I Player A, I would find someone new to play with. Player A's post WAS clearly explained and unbiased, in my opinion. And he seemed open to the responses he got. However, you will settle for no less than the designer's ruling over something that is clearly some high level rules lawyering.

You describe the situation as Player A "getting there(sp) way." Try to remember that these people are supposed to be your friends trying to figure out a how a rule works in a confusing yet very fun game, not two children arguing over their favorite toy.
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Teena H
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Anyway, I got an answer straight from the source (I have a strong aversion to using email, I tweeted them this thread).



Link: https://twitter.com/Glompbot/status/830758553560322048
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Becq Starforged
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I'll add my vote to
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The patriot reduces the total amount of enmity transferred to one under the conditions given. Not only is it fine for this enmity to be an opponent's enmity -- it actually MUST be, since the Patriot's ability can only be used if you are at war with the target (ie, have their enmity in your at war box).

Also, regarding this:
ranggor wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Maybe they do want these to be 2 different things because rolling around with a stack of enmity attacking people and only returning 1 enmity each time really would miss up the game if you built the system for it so this may be the reason it is written as return and pay as 2 separate things.

In almost every case, when your first impression is "My God, this advisor would be OP if he were used repeatedly", you should consider that you can generally only use any given advisor once per game year, which typically means not more than twice per game.

In this particular case,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the Patriot's use is even more limited. He can only be used against higher-ranked players, and only so long as the enmity lasts. You can prevent a player from using the Patriot more than once simply by not attacking them. (Or by stealing the Patriot.)

Even if you *did* attack the player and ended up giving him a pile of enmity to fuel the Patriot, that enmity doesn't go to the at war box until the following winter. (Unless it's due to a ship raid.)

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