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Subject: Language dependence and versions rss

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Veljko Dobrijevic
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I have a choice between buying the 2016 version in english for 50€ or buying it in german (which I don't speak) for 25€.
Now as for the 2016 version VS the 2008 version I like the 3D plastic tokens pretty much, I just hate the really bland map (yellow and blue and blank, while the old version had mountains and forests). Also people say the rules have been improved, so I think I'd be satisfied with the 2016 versions.
The problem is the english version is overpriced, while the german one is dirt cheap, so I checked on BGG and saw it said "language independent", and decided to buy the german one, figuring I'd either print out the english manual or ask the publisher for one. But then I saw images of what seems to be the 2016 version with player screens with lots of textual information printed on them, which seem to serve as player aids. So it is not language independent after all ? Is the information on BGG wrong or does someone not consider player aids as part of the game (because I certainly do) ?
Oh, and is there any other (art or components) difference between the 2016 english and german versions (FFG and Heidelberger) ?
 
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Rob Rob
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Other than the rulebook, the game is language independent. The player screens do quote the rules but can easily be printed at home. They aren't require to play the game so they don't make the game language dependent.

The rules have been improved in the sense they were cleaned up and better explained (the difference between an internal and external conflict has always been confusing). AFAIK, there are no actual changes.

IMHO, the plastic bits in the new edition are pretty but are just chrome.
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Christopher Dearlove
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Robrob wrote:
The rules have been improved in the sense they were cleaned up and better explained (the difference between an internal and external conflict has always been confusing). AFAIK, there are no actual changes.


In the main rules, there's at least one corner case that is cleaned up, though it rarely comes up. The optional building rules were a mess in the previous edition and have been really cleaned up, and that includes case that really do occur.
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Nicholas Hjelmberg
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Dearlove wrote:
Robrob wrote:
The rules have been improved in the sense they were cleaned up and better explained (the difference between an internal and external conflict has always been confusing). AFAIK, there are no actual changes.


In the main rules, there's at least one corner case that is cleaned up, though it rarely comes up. The optional building rules were a mess in the previous edition and have been really cleaned up, and that includes case that really do occur.


I haven't read the new rules but found the old ones easy enough to understand. Which is the "corner case" you refer to (in case I've played something wrong)?

To the OP, not even newbies I've played with look at the rules on the screens so I'd say go for the components you like best. Personally I prefer the old wooden components, since they give more of an "ancient" feeling.
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Morten K
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nhjelmberg wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
Robrob wrote:
The rules have been improved in the sense they were cleaned up and better explained (the difference between an internal and external conflict has always been confusing). AFAIK, there are no actual changes.


In the main rules, there's at least one corner case that is cleaned up, though it rarely comes up. The optional building rules were a mess in the previous edition and have been really cleaned up, and that includes case that really do occur.


I haven't read the new rules but found the old ones easy enough to understand. Which is the "corner case" you refer to (in case I've played something wrong)?

To the OP, not even newbies I've played me look at the rules on the screens so I'd say go for the components you like best. Personally I prefer the old wooden components, since they give more of an "ancient" feeling.


Or be a silly git like me and get both so you can take the wooden components from the old one and the culture tiles from the new one (they are easier to distinguish for us colour blind)...
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Christopher Dearlove
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nhjelmberg wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
Robrob wrote:
The rules have been improved in the sense they were cleaned up and better explained (the difference between an internal and external conflict has always been confusing). AFAIK, there are no actual changes.


In the main rules, there's at least one corner case that is cleaned up, though it rarely comes up. The optional building rules were a mess in the previous edition and have been really cleaned up, and that includes case that really do occur.


I haven't read the new rules but found the old ones easy enough to understand. Which is the "corner case" you refer to (in case I've played something wrong)?


The subject of much unresolved discussion in a rules thread here. Roughly speaking if you have a war in which due to removing tiles of colour A there are tiles left of colour B (next) that were in one of the two kingdoms, but are now disconnected from it. If you think the answer is obvious, read the old rules carefully and see if they correspond to what you think is obvious. (What I'd say is obvious is right. But the wording was strictly wrong.)

And as I said, for buildings (not monuments) I for one couldn't work out what they meant. Even with the benefit of Reiner's original rules before Mayfair made a mess of them there were still things not covered.

Quote:
To the OP, not even newbies I've played me look at the rules on the screens so I'd say go for the components you like best. Personally I prefer the old wooden components, since they give more of an "ancient" feeling.
 
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Nicholas Hjelmberg
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Dearlove wrote:
nhjelmberg wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
Robrob wrote:
The rules have been improved in the sense they were cleaned up and better explained (the difference between an internal and external conflict has always been confusing). AFAIK, there are no actual changes.


In the main rules, there's at least one corner case that is cleaned up, though it rarely comes up. The optional building rules were a mess in the previous edition and have been really cleaned up, and that includes case that really do occur.


I haven't read the new rules but found the old ones easy enough to understand. Which is the "corner case" you refer to (in case I've played something wrong)?


The subject of much unresolved discussion in a rules thread here. Roughly speaking if you have a war in which due to removing tiles of colour A there are tiles left of colour B (next) that were in one of the two kingdoms, but are now disconnected from it. If you think the answer is obvious, read the old rules carefully and see if they correspond to what you think is obvious. (What I'd say is obvious is right. But the wording was strictly wrong.)

And as I said, for buildings (not monuments) I for one couldn't work out what they meant. Even with the benefit of Reiner's original rules before Mayfair made a mess of them there were still things not covered.


Ah, I guess you refer to Leader separates kingdoms mid-conflict? I agree that the rules could have been clearer regarding this special case of tiles either completely disconnected or only connected through the unification tile.

If this were to happen in any of my games, I would probably not count disconnected tiles of any kind with reference to the sentence "they only have to be in that part of the kingdom on 'his side' of the unification tile" in the section "Count the Supporters".
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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nhjelmberg wrote:
Ah, I guess you refer to Leader separates kingdoms mid-conflict? I agree that the rules could have been clearer regarding this special case of tiles either completely disconnected or only connected through the unification tile.

If this were to happen in any of my games, I would probably not count disconnected tiles of any kind with reference to the sentence "they only have to be in that part of the kingdom on 'his side' of the unification tile" in the section "Count the Supporters".


That is the case, and so the "could have been clearer" hopefully now is clearer.

(I don't think I've got a credit in that rulebook, but I actually did some work on it, as I did for Ra, where I did get one.)
 
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Nicholas Hjelmberg
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Dearlove wrote:
nhjelmberg wrote:
Ah, I guess you refer to Leader separates kingdoms mid-conflict? I agree that the rules could have been clearer regarding this special case of tiles either completely disconnected or only connected through the unification tile.

If this were to happen in any of my games, I would probably not count disconnected tiles of any kind with reference to the sentence "they only have to be in that part of the kingdom on 'his side' of the unification tile" in the section "Count the Supporters".


That is the case, and so the "could have been clearer" hopefully now is clearer.

(I don't think I've got a credit in that rulebook, but I actually did some work on it, as I did for Ra, where I did get one.)


Found the FFG rules as well and yes, they are clearer. Well done!

"Count the supporters: Both the attacker and the defender draw strength by counting their leader’s supporters, which are tiles of like color on the board that are still connected to the leader.These tiles need not be adjacent to the respective leader.They only have to be in that part of the kingdom on his segment of the uni cation tile." (Bold added by me.)
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Christopher Dearlove
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nhjelmberg wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
nhjelmberg wrote:
Ah, I guess you refer to Leader separates kingdoms mid-conflict? I agree that the rules could have been clearer regarding this special case of tiles either completely disconnected or only connected through the unification tile.

If this were to happen in any of my games, I would probably not count disconnected tiles of any kind with reference to the sentence "they only have to be in that part of the kingdom on 'his side' of the unification tile" in the section "Count the Supporters".


That is the case, and so the "could have been clearer" hopefully now is clearer.

(I don't think I've got a credit in that rulebook, but I actually did some work on it, as I did for Ra, where I did get one.)


Found the FFG rules as well and yes, they are clearer. Well done!


I am of course only claiming a bit of the credit, along with Reiner Knizia (obviously) and the team now at WindRider games.

Quote:
"Count the supporters: Both the attacker and the defender draw strength by counting their leader’s supporters, which are tiles of like color on the board that are still connected to the leader.These tiles need not be adjacent to the respective leader.They only have to be in that part of the kingdom on his segment of the uni cation tile." (Bold added by me.)
 
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Veljko Dobrijevic
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This thread has gone offtopic since I started it.
A whole lot of discussion about rules details I know nothing about since I haven't yet bought or played the game, and like I already said I knew before I started this thread that the rules in the new edition were clarified, and that's all I need to know about that.
No one answered the last question in my post, about differences other than language between the recent Heidelberger and FFG versions...
And again with the old (and offtopic) discussion of wood VS plastic - people read the original post, I wasn't going to buy the old version with the wood pieces anyway because 1) it's very hard to find now, and 2) I mostly prefer the components of the newer versions (except for the maps)...
The main question of my post was can I buy the Heidelberger version for 2 times less money and still have a perfectly playable game (not being able to speak German). The only person to even try to answer that question was RobRob, and I'm grateful for that answer but I completely disagree with it.
If the player screens / aids / rules summaries are in German then I definitely have to say the game IS NOT LANGUAGE INDEPENDENT (and the info on BGG is therefor wrong), because rules summaries are an integral part of every game, and have been used during the game in almost every game I've ever played (and not just with noobs, even experienced players sometimes need reminders during gameplay).
And no, I can't just print them out. If they were just A4 text I could, but still it would look very ugly compared to the original, like printed out game manuals look really ugly compared to original ones. But from what I've seen they're 3D cardboard shapes, with folds and a jagged top edge shaped like a wall.
So I have a choice between :
1. Spending twice the money to get the overpriced english version
2. Buying the version without (for me) the rulebook AND the player screens
Both those choices really suck ! I wish there was a third one...
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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My advice, should you want to take it, is first paragraphs were invented for a reason, it's easier to read that way than a long screed. Second, the status of rules actually matters, so dismissing that as all irrelevant misses the point. And that's part of a tone that (maybe because English may not be your first language) isn't one that encourages people to help.

As to player aids, well my first copy is an original Hans in Glück version. Where there is Herman on the screens that could serve as player aids. But, like many games, player aids aren't fundamental, you can play well without them.

Ultimately, what's on offer is on offer, take it or leave it. You wanted another option? Second hand market is the only other one that occurs to me.
 
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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Enkidu_of_Abydos wrote:
This thread has gone offtopic since I started it.
So I have a choice between :
1. Spending twice the money to get the overpriced english version
2. Buying the version without (for me) the rulebook AND the player screens
Both those choices really suck ! I wish there was a third one...

I chose option 2 long ago and it really doesn't suck at all. I bought a German version instead of English, French or Spanish (the languages I use) because it was available and cheaper at the time, and I have played it plenty of times with people not reading German. Player aids on the screens are not needed, and if you really wanted them there are many to print in almost any language (I printed Spanish screens but, as I said, no one used them). And I printed French and Spanish rulebooks from the files section.
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Veljko Dobrijevic
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Thanks for the advice Miguel, but I decided that since I wasn't happy with options #1 and #2 to create option #3 - and so I negotiated with a seller for a lower price for an english version. It's still more expensive than the german version, but at least the bitter pill is smaller and easier to swallow...
 
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franchi wrote:

Player aids on the screens are not needed, and if you really wanted them there are many to print in almost any language (I printed Spanish screens but, as I said, no one used them).


Could you please share, where did you find many of screens to print? I couldn't find any.
 
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WaspHive wrote:
franchi wrote:

Player aids on the screens are not needed, and if you really wanted them there are many to print in almost any language (I printed Spanish screens but, as I said, no one used them).
Could you please share, where did you find many of screens to print? I couldn't find any.

Well, my memory is not very good, I thought there were many in the files here! I only found two, my Spanish file and a Portuguese one:

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/44364/screen-text-spanish...
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/89235/player-screen-portu...

I think it was in other gaming sites that I saw other languages, but since I was interested in Spanish only I did not keep track of them...
 
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franchi wrote:
I think it was in other gaming sites that I saw other languages, but since I was interested in Spanish only I did not keep track of them...

I was hoping, there is an English one. Thanks for the quick response, though.
 
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