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Subject: Legacy and PnP: A match made in... rss

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Andrew Watson
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Terms:
o Legacy game: when you play the game, the game changes, and those changes carry forward into future plays; often implemented by permanent changes to components, e.g., application of stickers to board.
o PnP: print and play.

Here are some of the objections to some Legacy games:
o They can't be rewound, because the stickers are stuck on.
o Once they are "finished", they can't be played any more.
o I don't want to pay money for a game that is designed to get to a state in which I can't play it any more, and can't sell it.

A PnP Legacy game might address some of these objections. It might, for example, have:
o A board consisting of letter/A4 size sheets. Could be modular, wouldn't need to be.
o Stickers that alter the board, to be printed out as if they were address labels, again on letter/A4 paper.

Once the sequence of games was completed, the stickered board could simply be recycled.

So Legacy and PnP might be a match made in heaven. On the other hand, it might be a match made in "the other place".
o A Legacy game is a hungry beast in terms of design, development, testing, and other activities.
o Price points acceptable for PnP include zero, and other small amounts.
o How to feed the hungry beast with the scraps from PnP sales?

Thanks for reading. Thoughts?
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B C Z
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You cannot unwatch a movie.
You cannot unread a book.
You cannot unknow the answer to a puzzle.

Why must all board games be "unwound"?


If the medium were digital, then the game could be unwound -- think of popular RPG titles where you actually get to choose things that affect the game later.

But the medium is not digital, it's paper, cardboard, ink and adhesive.


If the goal were 'semi-permanency' then the designers would accommodate that, allowing "permanent" changes to be "temporary" in nature. Dungeons & Dragons: Temple of Elemental Evil Board Game does this by having 'record sheets' where you can record the game state changes.

Games that don't do that don't intend the changes to be rolled back.


So ultimately, you choose to either purchase the experience, or you don't. You're buying a 'license' to play the game one time.
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Brian M
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The entire point of 'Legacy' is to control who can readily play the game, to require multiple purchases to replay or to play with different groups and to prevent selling "used" copies.

So, a "PnP" legacy would in fact be far better for the consumer, but would kind of miss the point of "legacy".

If you want to make a campaign game you can always just do what games did for decades for "legacy" came along and make the "changing" parts easily recordable and not damaging/modifying permanent components.
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Charles Ward
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I think that this discussion and this one: Opinion on Print and Play LCG model, can shed light on the potential of PNP, and help PNP designers improve their games.
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Jeremy Lennert
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StormKnight wrote:
The entire point of 'Legacy' is to control who can readily play the game, to require multiple purchases to replay or to play with different groups and to prevent selling "used" copies.

Are you being facetious, or do you genuinely believe that legacy games are designed specifically to destroy the used market?
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Lizzie
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“Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.” ― G.K. Chesterton
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I have been pondering this for a while, though the issues I thought of were more like "how to stop people accidentally reading the cards as they make them" how to still include nice surprises like "look under that insert, ta-da a deck you didn't know existed" rather than actual financial concerns...
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Greg
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You could have some element of the PnP have something along the lines of "Between this game and next game go to www.madeupname.com and download the secret extra pnp file"

I did some testing for a legacy game I'm working on a week ago and got some fantastic "I didn't even know that could happen" moments out of individual cards - concealing an entire deck may not be necessary.
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Alexandra M
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byronczimmer wrote:
You cannot unwatch a movie.
You cannot unread a book.
You cannot unknow the answer to a puzzle.

Why must all board games be "unwound"?


If the medium were digital, then the game could be unwound -- think of popular RPG titles where you actually get to choose things that affect the game later.

But the medium is not digital, it's paper, cardboard, ink and adhesive.


If the goal were 'semi-permanency' then the designers would accommodate that, allowing "permanent" changes to be "temporary" in nature. Dungeons & Dragons: Temple of Elemental Evil Board Game does this by having 'record sheets' where you can record the game state changes.

Games that don't do that don't intend the changes to be rolled back.


So ultimately, you choose to either purchase the experience, or you don't. You're buying a 'license' to play the game one time.


Yeah this is how I feel about games like Sherlock Holmes, Consulting Detective. While that's a game you can certainly sell after doing the mysteries, unlike a legacy game (in fact my copy was purchased used!), I have 0 qualms paying for the experience. I paid $46 Canadian for it used (the market's bad...), and the first two cases already provided fun for six people, for 6+ hours. Worth it.
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James Wahl
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The problem with PnP "Legacy" is that you have to look at everything pretty intimately in order to make it, which would probably ruin the experience for at least one person.

Of course "Legacy" games were concocted in order to make games disposable. It's a problem for a games industry that games can last 40 years and a one time payment could potentially bring joy to dozens of people dozens of times over that period, possibly being sold through to up to half a dozen owners. What industries need are both changes in fashion and obsolescence, whether forced or not.

alexangiraffe wrote:
Yeah this is how I feel about games like Sherlock Holmes, Consulting Detective. While that's a game you can certainly sell after doing the mysteries, unlike a legacy game (in fact my copy was purchased used!), I have 0 qualms paying for the experience. I paid $46 Canadian for it used (the market's bad...), and the first two cases already provided fun for six people, for 6+ hours. Worth it.


If you then sold it for $46, it would have been free; if you're lucky enough to sell it for $56, you were paid to play.
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Gene Moore
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HuggableHamster wrote:
I have been pondering this for a while, though the issues I thought of were more like "how to stop people accidentally reading the cards as they make them" how to still include nice surprises like "look under that insert, ta-da a deck you didn't know existed" rather than actual financial concerns...

pharmakon wrote:
The problem with PnP "Legacy" is that you have to look at everything pretty intimately in order to make it, which would probably ruin the experience for at least one person.

This and this. I think it's a fine idea to try out, and there would be people who are interested, but how do you make it work without revealing all of the fun spoilers?

EDIT: Somehow I jumped right over this comment...
x_equals_speed wrote:
You could have some element of the PnP have something along the lines of "Between this game and next game go to www.madeupname.com and download the secret extra pnp file"

I did some testing for a legacy game I'm working on a week ago and got some fantastic "I didn't even know that could happen" moments out of individual cards - concealing an entire deck may not be necessary.

An online component is somewhat reasonable, I suppose, although it doesn't carry the same thrill as "open this box".
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Greg
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What if you framed your game as some sort of illuminati conspiracy uncovering game and had some rules in a kind of code?

So when you decypher a page of code it has some story that'd be in a hidden document and says "Now write the following new rule into space A of the rulebook: Ruley ruley rules text"

Perhaps achieving particular things in the game would give bits of text to figure out, clues as to how to do it. You could rule that decrypting efforts couldn't take place in between games or during your own turn and use it as something that's done during downtime.

Could be complex to make work, but might make for a wicked immersive experience if you could do it.
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Jeremy Lennert
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x_equals_speed wrote:
You could have some element of the PnP have something along the lines of "Between this game and next game go to www.madeupname.com and download the secret extra pnp file"

Requiring people to do multiple print runs seems burdensome...especially if you want to introduce new stuff in the middle of a session, rather than between sessions.
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lampeter
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x_equals_speed wrote:
What if you framed your game as some sort of illuminati conspiracy uncovering game and had some rules in a kind of code?

So when you decypher a page of code it has some story that'd be in a hidden document and says "Now write the following new rule into space A of the rulebook: Ruley ruley rules text"

Perhaps achieving particular things in the game would give bits of text to figure out, clues as to how to do it. You could rule that decrypting efforts couldn't take place in between games or during your own turn and use it as something that's done during downtime.

Could be complex to make work, but might make for a wicked immersive experience if you could do it.


Maybe the player would construct a couple templates where marked areas are cut out with a craft knife, then templates are laid over other printed sheets to reveal the secret message beneath. You could even use the same coded page to provide multiple messages when different templates are applied.
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Benj Davis
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Antistone wrote:
x_equals_speed wrote:
You could have some element of the PnP have something along the lines of "Between this game and next game go to www.madeupname.com and download the secret extra pnp file"

Requiring people to do multiple print runs seems burdensome...especially if you want to introduce new stuff in the middle of a session, rather than between sessions.


Potentially, but that's probably why Greg specified that it would be between sessions.
 
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Bojan Prakljacic
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PnP + LCG (where LCG stands for Legacy Card Game)?
If we substitute Pnp with PoD?

I imagine a card game set in the post-apocalyptic universe where your core box has a map, a diary, and a pack of cards to build your starting character and have your first adventure on the only location printed on the map (starting location).

From there, your story will progress and branch depending on your score and things you have done in your adventure (different choices). Any item you lose (a card) you have to destroy (or set aside, never to be used again unless you gonna start from the scratch with new character). There is leveling (building your deck after each adventure, changing your stats on the sheet in your diary, and writing some resolutions that will lead to unique story for you current character, stickers to place on the item cards as you upgrade them...)

Now, here's the catch: whenever you go to PoD page to get a new adventure pack, before you can order it you have to fill a quick questionnaire about your progress in the game so far (mostly your score and your level), after that an app will give you a new locations on the map (new adventures) which you need to add on your map (you just write them with a pen, following the coordinates the app gives you) depending on your score and level. From there, you can choose only one, and that adventure pack will be printed for you, but the cards in the deck would be randomized with standard, medium and rare loot, enemies, NPCs...

So, even if you went toward the same adventure as other players, you will never get the same experience, although choices you need to take would be the same.

Legacy part would also come in future sets, where your map topography would be changed forever (destroyed locations that you previously would be able to explore, war-bands that are conquering parts of the map, making your trek more difficult, or special bosses which will affect your current adventures...)

When you die, all that would be left from your character would be a diary (which would be encouraged to write in proper format and your legacy (a deck with items, which you would be able to transfer (some of them) to your next kin, in case you managed to reproduce.
Or back to beginning - build a new character, but he/she is starting in a completely different world, changed forever, and still changing as the time progress and new adventures and packs are introduced.
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Alexandra M
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pharmakon wrote:
The problem with PnP "Legacy" is that you have to look at everything pretty intimately in order to make it, which would probably ruin the experience for at least one person.

Of course "Legacy" games were concocted in order to make games disposable. It's a problem for a games industry that games can last 40 years and a one time payment could potentially bring joy to dozens of people dozens of times over that period, possibly being sold through to up to half a dozen owners. What industries need are both changes in fashion and obsolescence, whether forced or not.

alexangiraffe wrote:
Yeah this is how I feel about games like Sherlock Holmes, Consulting Detective. While that's a game you can certainly sell after doing the mysteries, unlike a legacy game (in fact my copy was purchased used!), I have 0 qualms paying for the experience. I paid $46 Canadian for it used (the market's bad...), and the first two cases already provided fun for six people, for 6+ hours. Worth it.


If you then sold it for $46, it would have been free; if you're lucky enough to sell it for $56, you were paid to play.
\

True - I may even be able to sell it after, which does change the price of it compared to Legacy, but I really don't care if I can. I also love the game so I may want to keep it and lone it to friends who haven't played with me
 
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Alexandre Correia
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Legacy and PnP... somebody is trying to match them.

Worlds of Legend
 
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Benjamin Tolputt
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StormKnight wrote:
The entire point of 'Legacy' is to control who can readily play the game, to require multiple purchases to replay or to play with different groups and to prevent selling "used" copies.


Whilst I am certain that some designers are doing that, this is not the design goal of the all legacy games. At the very least, the co-designer of Pandemic Legacy stated in a GDC speech their goal was to get the player to play the game more than the usual three or four times before moving onto the next board game hotness. I'm inclined to believe him given the number of games I have sitting on my shelf that got played three or four times... before I moved onto the new game hotness.



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Micheal Keane
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An interesting way to do it would be to have a website (ideally with a way to run offline) where you would enter a code along with the final state of the game and board and it would spit out a PDF to print sheets for a new rules, an updated board, new character sheets and potentially new stickers for new mechanics. Opens the door to much more complex changes between games. Ideally it’d all be deterministic but there could be randomness if you wanted.

If setup is simple (just tape four sheets together, cut up a few pages, etc), you wouldn’t have to worry much about spoilers. If you want mid game stuff, it could just be a page that’s meant to be immediately folded and have whatever components for it already on the sticker sheet, albeit with ambiguous looking icons.
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Jeffery Hudson
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So, are you thinking something like Deep Future?

It's PnP, and while not totally Legacy, it does keep many of the same ideas/mechanics...but instead of destroying cards, you create them, etc.
 
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