Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
67 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Gloomhaven» Forums » Rules

Subject: Monster and traps. scenario 4 spoilers. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
chang chang

Connecticut
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
hi all,
I just want to verify that we finally got this right after reading the faqs and help from you and Isaac. appreciate confirmation.

SPOILERS layout of one room on SCENARIO 4- include picture, showing monsters- and discussion of one ability of one of them in detail.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
figures standing where their bases layover.

 
]

Cultist went first.
Is the earth elemental turn.

He had drawn Move +1 (giving him 3 as his movement), attack +0, consume wind: -2 attack. (Wind was active)

IF I finally understood this right, he would choose to protect himself over attacking; and would only move tru a trap if that is his only option ever.

Hence, he would Focus on Brute, he cant get to his Focus without triggering the trap and based on quote below (bold part): he would move tru the open path that contains the Cultist (on Hex #3) to move as close to his Focus as possible. No attacking, no taking triggering the trap.

Quote:
If a monster can't get within range to attack with its movement, will it still move closer?
Absolutely, monsters will always use their movement to get closer to their focus by moving along the shortest possible path (up to their attack range if they are attacking). If an allied monster (i.e. a figure that the monster can move through) is occupying the end space of the monster's movement, it will still consider the shortest path the shortest path and move as far down this path as it can.


yes? did I finally get it right?
thanks

PS it seems this was THE practice room to learn this concept, or so I hoped we did
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Skov
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No. The Earth Elemental will focus on the brute, and try to move to attack. The only way to do so is to move onto the trap, so that its what the monster will do.
Edit: I have changed my view.
Double edit: I've changed it again. Back to original answer whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
chang chang

Connecticut
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
bloody hell... why am I seem to be the only morrow that cant get this. And I`m the "DM" of my game so I need to get it.

we would have won anyway (yay! second try lol) but.. arrg!

on my preview run...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
the cultist went after, but the only way to attack for the earth demon was to step on the trap (due to the card draw, it was an AoE that wouldn`t include the Brute otherwise).
So it was explained to me that he would not attack and move to the spot where the cultist is standing on this picture, protecting himself; because he COULD eventually attack taking the open path


so why would this act different?

I`m gonna cry..

EDIT maybe I should just houseruled it as we move him with this rules. it make sense (doesn't create a when he attack and take the trap vs when he doesnt attack and avoid the trap situation) and as long as we stay constant it should be fine.
Traps might have become better for kiting slow monsters though ... :/ ..
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel Cwertetschka
Germany
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Gloomhaven: Forgotten Circles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
the earth elemental cannot stand ontop of the cultist, so the only legal space where it can perform its attack is the trap, so he will step onto it so he can perform his attack.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Skov
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Perhaps it will help to remeber that if a monster has some way to be able to attack, then it will always go and perform an attack. When a monster "focuses" on a hero, it does not so much focus on the hero, as it focuses on getting to some position where it can attack from.
Edit: I have changed my view. This is still not correct.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
chang chang

Connecticut
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
nom_ wrote:
Perhaps it will help to remeber that if a monster has some way to be able to attack, then it will always go and perform an attack. When a monster "focuses" on a hero, it does not so much focus on the hero, as it focuses on getting to some position where it can attack from.


but then why in this case he would choose to NOT attack and avoid the trap..


Spoiler (click to reveal)
In the picture below AND IGNORING TINKERER (assumed tinkerer is NOT on the map) BRUTE and EARTH DEMON are standing on the hex where their bases lay over

How would the earth demon act with the draw card show on the picture and ONLY having BRUTE as focus? Could you explained/detailed why?

 


Isaac answered that he would move on the hex BELOW the trap and NO attack. (I end up asking on the main faqs thread because BBGer were indicating that as an answer)

and pretty sure got Isaac upset about this topic.. so i was hoping i had it all clear now

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel Cwertetschka
Germany
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Gloomhaven: Forgotten Circles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
he? he would move below the trap AND attack as he can clearly attack the tinkerer with his area of effect attack.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Skov
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Could you link to where you asked about that second situation? I would also expect the Eath Elemental to move onto the trap and attack. Perhaps I have misunderstood.
Edit: Morthai, remeber to ignore the Tinkerer, assume it is not on the map. The attack pattern can hit the brute, if the Earth Elemental were to attack from the hex with the trap.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
chang chang

Connecticut
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Morthai wrote:
if the tinkerer wouldn't be there, he would not step on the trap as his attack would not be able to hit the brute.


if he step on the trap he would be able to hit the brute. his AoE is 2 front and 1 back, brute is on the one back.

nom_ wrote:
Could you link to where you asked about that second situation? I would also expect the Eath Elemental to move onto the trap and attack. Perhaps I have misunderstood.
Edit: Morthai, remeber to ignore the Tinkerer, assume it is not on the map. The attack pattern can hit the brute, if the Earth Elemental were to attack from the hex with the trap.


this was his answer:

Cephalofair wrote:
3. The monster in question would move to the hex below the trap (assuming a base movement of 1) and not attack. Since there is a path around the trap, it won't go through the trap, but the path doesn't quite take it in range to attack the Brute. I don't know how to more clearly explain this.


(pretty sure "1" is a typo, cause one would never get him to that space and he clearly wrote "hex below the trap" and he has a +0 (his base movement is 2)

is from here
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1687146/official-faq/pa...

sorry, i don't know how to link direct post... if you tell me how i can do that

EdIT
Morthai wrote:
nom_ wrote:

Edit: Morthai, remeber to ignore the Tinkerer, assume it is not on the map. The attack pattern can hit the brute, if the Earth Elemental were to attack from the hex with the trap.

no it cannot hit the brute on the trap because there is a wall inbetween them and the attack is a melee attack.


earth elemental would have clear "LoS" to brute there. no? is the back hex, hence you can apply that attack.
If the trap were not there he would have attacked

EDIT oh wait, you deleted that post...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel Cwertetschka
Germany
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Gloomhaven: Forgotten Circles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
there is a clear difference between your two pictures:
in the first picture the brute is standing ontop of the door in the second picture the door hex is empty.

assuming 3 movement:
in the first picture the golem steps on the trap as it is the closest empty space next to the brute and attack.

assuming 2 movement:
in the first picture the golem would move behind the cultist and still attack the brute as he is in the aoe of the attack

in the second picture the hex beneath the trap is empty and the door hex is empty. So the golem opts to treat the trap as an obstacle and tries to move to the door hex, thus not attacking as on the hex beneath the trap his aoe cannot reach the brute.

 

 
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Skov
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hm. I guess I was wrong in my above reply then, Chang. In that case I believe your top example is correct, and that the Earth Elemental will get in line behind the cultist and wait its turn
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
chang chang

Connecticut
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
yea, i know they are different.
they were 2 different games, 2 different attack card for the earth demon.

But why would the AoE no hit if standing on the trap?
its area include the hex with the door and the one above with the wall; as well as brute hex.
attacing tru the wall would be attacking the hex above brute, but here he could attack no?

is the same configuration as the flamethrower which to my knowledge was confirmed it attacks there

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel Cwertetschka
Germany
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Gloomhaven: Forgotten Circles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sorry i was reffering to the wrong picture, edited the above to illustrate the correct answer.
added in pictures to explain what i meant with the wall blockage.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
chang chang

Connecticut
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Morthai wrote:
sorry i was reffering to the wrong picture, edited the above to illustrate the correct answer.
added in pictures to explain what i meant with the wall blockage.


Please note that is 2 different monster ability cards for the monster.
In picture 1 with 3 movement, attack melee +1
In picture 2 with 2 movement and the AoE on the picture.

On picture 2, he can position himself on the trap AND attack brute; is the same hex configuration as flamethrower.

nom_ wrote:
Hm. I guess I was wrong in my above reply then, Chang. In that case I believe your top example is correct, and that the Earth Elemental will get in line behind the cultist and wait its turn


hmmm... ok so you agree that the AoE would hit Brute there? AND he choose no to attack to protect himself from the trap.
By Isaac reply is sound clear that he choose the open path and no attacking vs attacking and taking the damage (or despite this path don't quite get him to his focus to attack)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel Cwertetschka
Germany
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Gloomhaven: Forgotten Circles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chang_1910 wrote:

In picture 2 with 2 movement and the AoE on the picture.

On picture 2, he can position himself on the trap AND attack brute; is the same hex configuration as flamethrower.

but he wouldnt move onto the trap, as the door would be a legal space where he could attack without moving onto the trap, thus he treats the trap as an obstacle and does not move onto it to attack but would move beneath the trap space.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel Cwertetschka
Germany
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Gloomhaven: Forgotten Circles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Morthai wrote:

assuming 3 movement:
in the first picture the golem steps on the trap as it is the closest empty space next to the brute and attack.

I was also saying the same thing as you, he would move onto the trap and attack.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathew G Somers
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
I may be wrong, but I believe the reason the Earth Demon would move below the trap and not onto it is because the AOE is technically a melee attack as it contains a grey hex.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Skov
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chang_1910 wrote:
hmmm... ok so you agree that the AoE would hit Brute there? AND he choose no to attack to protect himself from the trap.
By Isaac reply is sound clear that he choose the open path and no attacking vs attacking and taking the damage (or despite this path don't quite get him to his focus to attack)

Yes, I agree that the AoE would be able to hit the brute if the earth elemental attacked from the hex with the trap. And yes, after reading Isaacs reply I agree that the monster would choose the open path (though it is currently occupied by the cultist), and would not move onto the trap.

Edit: Matthew, but even if the two adjacent hexes of the attack pattern are empty, or occupied by obstables, you can still hit an enemy in the third hex.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
chang chang

Connecticut
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Morthai wrote:
chang_1910 wrote:

In picture 2 with 2 movement and the AoE on the picture.

On picture 2, he can position himself on the trap AND attack brute; is the same hex configuration as flamethrower.

but he wouldnt move onto the trap, as the door would be a legal space where he could attack without moving onto the trap, thus he treats the trap as an obstacle and does not move onto it to attack but would move beneath the trap space.


by this logic then he would move behind the cultist in picture 1.

he could attack on his next turn by going to the path toward the door (Avoiding the trap), on this turn, he CANT reach the door, nor he could attack UNLESS he stand on the trap.

Hence.. on this turn on picture 1, he would move behind the cultist, because he treats the trap as an obstacle and he could reach his focus and could have attack (his movement would have ended on the cultist hex)

??
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel Cwertetschka
Germany
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Gloomhaven: Forgotten Circles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chang_1910 wrote:
Morthai wrote:
chang_1910 wrote:

In picture 2 with 2 movement and the AoE on the picture.

On picture 2, he can position himself on the trap AND attack brute; is the same hex configuration as flamethrower.

but he wouldnt move onto the trap, as the door would be a legal space where he could attack without moving onto the trap, thus he treats the trap as an obstacle and does not move onto it to attack but would move beneath the trap space.


by this logic then he would move behind the cultist in picture 1.

he could attack on his next turn by going to the path toward the door (Avoiding the trap), on this turn, he CANT reach the door, nor he could attack UNLESS he stand on the trap.

Hence.. on this turn on picture 1, he would move behind the cultist, because he treats the trap as an obstacle and he could reach his focus and could have attack (his movement would have ended on the cultist hex)

??

first picture:
if you are talking about the move 2 and aoe he would move behind the cultist and attack
if you are talking about the move 3 and melee he would move onto the trap and attack (as it is the only hex where he can legally go and attack THIS turn, the monster doesnt think ahead).

second picture:
if you are talking about the move 3 and melee, he would move onto the door and attack
if you are talking about the move 2 and aoe, he would look for the shortest path to a space where he could attack (which is the door hex), then sees the trap as an obstacle, then moves beneath the trap and not attack as his aoe cannot reach the brute.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Skov
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Morhtai, does that not contradict itself? If in picture 1 with move 3 and melee, the monster would move onto the trap and attack, then why do you say that in picture 2 with move 2 and AoE the monster will not move onto the trap and attack? That AoE attack pattern can hit the brute from the hex with the trap.

Also, your answer to the picture 1 move 3 and melee situation seems to contradict the answer from Isaac that Chang quoted above.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
chang chang

Connecticut
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ManWithBirdLikeWing wrote:
I may be wrong, but I believe the reason the Earth Demon would move below the trap and not onto it is because the AOE is technically a melee attack as it contains a grey hex.


per Isaac respond it doesnt sound that way. but if that was the case then the monster didnt choose to not attack, he couldnt.
This AoE is the same as the flamethrower, which to my understanding would hit

Morthai wrote:
second picture:...move 2 and aoe, he would look for the shortest path to a space where he could attack (which is the door hex), then sees the trap as an obstacle, then moves beneath the trap and not attack as his aoe cannot reach the brute.


seem the issue here is that we don't agree with AoE. and this would be a whole different discussion lol

you understand that his AoE CANT reach brute from the trap. I understand that it CAN.
if you put the red dot over the trap hex; and far red hex over brute; it hits. Is the same configuration as the flamethrower (also melee); which to my understanding hits

nom_ wrote:
chang_1910 wrote:
hmmm... ok so you agree that the AoE would hit Brute there? AND he choose no to attack to protect himself from the trap.
By Isaac reply is sound clear that he choose the open path and no attacking vs attacking and taking the damage (or despite this path don't quite get him to his focus to attack)

Yes, I agree that the AoE would be able to hit the brute if the earth elemental attacked from the hex with the trap. And yes, after reading Isaacs reply I agree that the monster would choose the open path (though it is currently occupied by the cultist), and would not move onto the trap.

Edit: Matthew, but even if the two adjacent hexes of the attack pattern are empty, or occupied by obstables, you can still hit an enemy in the third hex.


yes, to my understanding that was the conclusion on this hex with melee. Melee AoE works a tad different
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
chang chang

Connecticut
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Morthai wrote:
if you are talking about the move 3 and melee he would move onto the trap and attack (as it is the only hex where he can legally go and attack THIS turn, the monster doesnt think ahead)


if my understanding of traps is finally right they do. someone explained it to me as they would only move to trap is that is there ONLY option to EVER attack.. if they can find a path to eventually attack, as they move to their focus, they would do so and no attack
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel Cwertetschka
Germany
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Gloomhaven: Forgotten Circles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nom_ wrote:
Morhtai, does that not contradict itself? If in picture 1 with move 3 and melee, the monster would move onto the trap and attack, then why do you say that in picture 2 with move 2 and AoE the monster will not move onto the trap and attack? That AoE attack pattern can hit the brute from the hex with the trap.

Also, your answer to the picture 1 move 3 and melee situation seems to contradict the answer from Isaac that Chang quoted above.

??? no it doesnt contradict itself.
In picture 1 there is NO open hex where the golem can go to and attack
only if he moves ON THE TRAP he can attack, so of course he moves onto the trap. which is clearly in the rules.

In picture 2 there is only 1 open hex without a trap where the golem can attack THE DOOR hex. Thus it follows the traps=obstacle rules and does not move onto the trap space.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel Cwertetschka
Germany
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Gloomhaven: Forgotten Circles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chang_1910 wrote:
Morthai wrote:
if you are talking about the move 3 and melee he would move onto the trap and attack (as it is the only hex where he can legally go and attack THIS turn, the monster doesnt think ahead)


if my understanding of traps is finally right they do. someone explained it to me as they would only move to trap is that is there ONLY option to EVER attack.. if they can find a path to eventually attack, as they move to their focus, they would do so and no attack

isaac clearly stated that a monster doesnt look ahead to the next turn. there is no path towards the brute in picture 1 other through the trap. the cultist "counts as an obstacle" for the purpose of searching for a hex where he can attack with move 3 melee.

move 3 melee attack

move 2 aoe attack
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.