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Subject: Can players abandon a Scenario at any point? rss

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Eric Bridge
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I'm wondering about Treasure tiles that we missed on a scenario we completed. Can we just start a scenario, make a mad dash to the chests, open them, and then leave? If not, then it seems silly to sit there for 30 minutes or more while I die. I know we don't get completion bonuses this way of course.

I assume that we should not do road and city events each time we do this.

If the answer to this is Yes you can, as it appears from the rules, then what's really all that different in this and just opening them at the end of a scenario? I agree on the loot tokens rule - there are cards for that and this is how you make money. I agree it should stay "as is".

But it does seem silly to me to be able to make a treasure chest only run and then leave (which should not be that difficult if you choose fast movement cards, and/or use an especially fast character class) just because I couldn't get them the first time.

Please advise.
 
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Marc Alexandre
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You can if all the revealed rooms are empty. I don't remember if it's in the rulebook or the FAQ.
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Jason Druckenmiller
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Thagor wrote:
You can if all the revealed rooms are empty. I don't remember if it's in the rulebook or the FAQ.


I seem to recall it's part of the perma-death variant. If there are no active enemies you are allowed to retreat to save yourself from losing all your characters when you know you can't beat the next room. I don't see why you can't incorporate that into regular play.

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James Webster
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ebridge wrote:
I'm wondering about Treasure tiles that we missed on a scenario we completed. Can we just start a scenario, make a mad dash to the chests, open them, and then leave? If not, then it seems silly to sit there for 30 minutes or more while I die. I know we don't get completion bonuses this way of course.

I assume that we should not do road and city events each time we do this.

If the answer to this is Yes you can, as it appears from the rules, then what's really all that different in this and just opening them at the end of a scenario? I agree on the loot tokens rule - there are cards for that and this is how you make money. I agree it should stay "as is".

But it does seem silly to me to be able to make a treasure chest only run and then leave (which should not be that difficult if you choose fast movement cards, and/or use an especially fast character class) just because I couldn't get them the first time.

Please advise.


This is an interesting topic. On the one hand, I understand the reasoning behind not allowing characters to just sweep up all the dropped gold and treasure when the scenario is won... the above brings up some interesting discussion.

As I understand it, you are free to replay a scenario as much as you want after it is unlocked... especially if you want to go back and collect treasure you've missed.

Are you allowed to keep any treasure you find even when you fail a scenario? If so, I don't see a reason why this isn't a legitimate strategy (even thematic... if you saw they shiney loots the first time you explored a cavern, why not return later to run straight to it and grab it and get out before being overwhelmed?)

That being said, why spend the extra hours to do this when it seems like the risk to do so is minimal at best. There is no character permanent death (unless you're playing that variant). There is no way to get any type of permanent negative effects to your characters.

To me this is another reason to, at least, award treasure upon successful completion of a scenario if you didn't actually take time to pick it up. I think personally I'll probably also do the same for money as well. If you want more than your split share, you can still pick up during the battle... otherwise, you get a equal share at the end of the scenario.

I'm willing to listen to reasons not to though besides 'rules as written'. I don't really feel like the alternatives of spending more time repeating to get a treasure or just saying "Aww shucks" and not getting the treasure at all.
 
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ebridge wrote:
I'm wondering about Treasure tiles that we missed on a scenario we completed. Can we just start a scenario, make a mad dash to the chests, open them, and then leave? If not, then it seems silly to sit there for 30 minutes or more while I die. I know we don't get completion bonuses this way of course.

I assume that we should not do road and city events each time we do this.

If the answer to this is Yes you can, as it appears from the rules, then what's really all that different in this and just opening them at the end of a scenario? I agree on the loot tokens rule - there are cards for that and this is how you make money. I agree it should stay "as is".

But it does seem silly to me to be able to make a treasure chest only run and then leave (which should not be that difficult if you choose fast movement cards, and/or use an especially fast character class) just because I couldn't get them the first time.

Please advise.


Ultimately it's your game to play how you want. I would play until completion as if you win you get rewarded for winning. I think it's sort of a sham to rush a scenario for the chest with no intent to complete it.

But sure. Sorta takes all the fun out of it imo.
 
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Isaac Childres
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If you are not playing with perma-death, I see no problem in giving up on a scenario, essentially failing before you technically fulfill the failing conditions. And I suppose you could use this idea to rush treasure chests, but you've already spent the time to set up the scenario and play multiple rounds. Why not actually try to successfully complete the scenario to earn additional gold, experience, and check marks?
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William Harle
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Cephalofair wrote:
If you are not playing with perma-death, I see no problem in giving up on a scenario, essentially failing before you technically fulfill the failing conditions. And I suppose you could use this idea to rush treasure chests, but you've already spent the time to set up the scenario and play multiple rounds. Why not actually try to successfully complete the scenario to earn additional gold, experience, and check marks?


I like hearing this tho, since I know, especially when teaching this game to my wife, if she makes early scenario mistakes and ends up dying earlier, I would probably rather pack it in and go again from the start then make her sit there and watch me keep trying to fight through things. I think the ability to abandon in a non-permadeath game makes a lot of thematic sense. We would have done that regardless I think but hearing its fine by Isaac always makes me feel like I'm following rules and not just home ruling things (which I usually hate).
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James Webster
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Cephalofair wrote:
If you are not playing with perma-death, I see no problem in giving up on a scenario, essentially failing before you technically fulfill the failing conditions. And I suppose you could use this idea to rush treasure chests, but you've already spent the time to set up the scenario and play multiple rounds. Why not actually try to successfully complete the scenario to earn additional gold, experience, and check marks?


Because you designed a game with so much friggin content and I'd like to be able to finish before the inevitable expansion! Not a complaint by the way
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Eamon Burke
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Cephalofair wrote:
...but you've already spent the time to set up the scenario and play multiple rounds. Why not actually try to successfully complete the scenario to earn additional gold, experience, and check marks?


This has happened to us. We went into a one-off dungeon to get one of our guys 3xp before we went to Gloomhaven and leveled up, but we were like "hey, why not just finish it out for loot and checkmarks?"
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3kindsofsalt wrote:
Cephalofair wrote:
...but you've already spent the time to set up the scenario and play multiple rounds. Why not actually try to successfully complete the scenario to earn additional gold, experience, and check marks?


This has happened to us. We went into a one-off dungeon to get one of our guys 3xp before we went to Gloomhaven and leveled up, but we were like "hey, why not just finish it out for loot and checkmarks?"


Yeah, haha, I am 1 xp away from level 2. Maddening, haha.

I can certainly understand leaving a scenario early if one party member dies, BUT remember that you can discard cards to prevent damage if need be. I feel like someone would have to get completely wrecked to be exhausted early. And if you know you're not going to make it, you might as well pull out all the stops and use all your lost cards to get the other player(s) as far as possible.

Early exhaustion probably happens more often depending on your party makeup though so it could be a bigger deal than I think it is.
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artadius wrote:
ebridge wrote:
I'm wondering about Treasure tiles that we missed on a scenario we completed. Can we just start a scenario, make a mad dash to the chests, open them, and then leave? If not, then it seems silly to sit there for 30 minutes or more while I die. I know we don't get completion bonuses this way of course.

I assume that we should not do road and city events each time we do this.

If the answer to this is Yes you can, as it appears from the rules, then what's really all that different in this and just opening them at the end of a scenario? I agree on the loot tokens rule - there are cards for that and this is how you make money. I agree it should stay "as is".

But it does seem silly to me to be able to make a treasure chest only run and then leave (which should not be that difficult if you choose fast movement cards, and/or use an especially fast character class) just because I couldn't get them the first time.

Please advise.


This is an interesting topic. On the one hand, I understand the reasoning behind not allowing characters to just sweep up all the dropped gold and treasure when the scenario is won... the above brings up some interesting discussion.

As I understand it, you are free to replay a scenario as much as you want after it is unlocked... especially if you want to go back and collect treasure you've missed.

Are you allowed to keep any treasure you find even when you fail a scenario? If so, I don't see a reason why this isn't a legitimate strategy (even thematic... if you saw they shiney loots the first time you explored a cavern, why not return later to run straight to it and grab it and get out before being overwhelmed?)

That being said, why spend the extra hours to do this when it seems like the risk to do so is minimal at best. There is no character permanent death (unless you're playing that variant). There is no way to get any type of permanent negative effects to your characters.

To me this is another reason to, at least, award treasure upon successful completion of a scenario if you didn't actually take time to pick it up. I think personally I'll probably also do the same for money as well. If you want more than your split share, you can still pick up during the battle... otherwise, you get a equal share at the end of the scenario.

I'm willing to listen to reasons not to though besides 'rules as written'. I don't really feel like the alternatives of spending more time repeating to get a treasure or just saying "Aww shucks" and not getting the treasure at all.

I would agree with this in most cases just because it seems like collecting the treasure tends to be a central focus in my games, I go out of my way to prolong the scenario sometimes Just to try to collect the Treasure.

In some cases it makes no sense that you wouldn't get it. You ended the scenario one space away from the treasure? Sorry, try again. Unless the scenario is one in which your group was escaping an area and literally had no time to go back and pick up the treasure, it feels like if someone ends the scenario in the same room as the treasure you should be able to claim it. The loot coins that drop are just bonus gold though and those I think you should have to collect to earn.

I kind of want a Casual Story Mode where I can progress through the storyline AND get treasure easier along the way without feeling like I have to do multiple replays of a scenario just to have a perfect execution (though I appreciate the videogamey achievement feel of it). Maybe if you were graded on how you completed a scenario (A = perfect, B = scenario finished, but missed Battle goals and/or didn't actually Loot the Treasure tile, C or worse = heroes were exhausted). Or something like that.

OP's method of just running in and grabbing the treasure seems a bit cheezy and seems to require alot of setup to fulfill a significantly easier objective. Why wouldn't you just play the full scenario again if you're doing the setup or, even easier, just claim the treasure the first time around when you complete it?
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Anthony Avelar
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My group didn't know this rule and it made this happen twice. I am so glad for this rule and keeps 2x crits not wreck a game.
 
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Byron Campbell
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I agree with a lot of the discussion here. On the one hand, it's perfectly within the rules to replay a scenario, grab the treasure, and then play intentionally poorly to fail the scenario in the next couple of rounds and end it early. By that logic, you should be allowed to fail the scenario whenever you want--it has the same net result. But if you are planning to do that for every scenario where you failed to grab the treasure the first time, you might as well just cheat and take the treasure without setting everything back up and replaying. Again, you get the same net result. I guess the big difference would be additional coins, XP and possible road events.
 
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The Waffler
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Note: very very very small spoiler potential, even though I don't think it is one.

Funny story about this.
My wife and I were playing a new scenario, and a road event made us start the match with only 3 health.
It looked like it was going to be a pretty tough one. I am playing a mind thief while she is playing a spellweaver.

So we kind of got disheartened because our classes can be very squishy and there were a lot of enemies and archers, and now we are starting with only 3 health.

So we decided that we would try to make the best of it. We didn't expect to win, so we thought we would just try to get the treasure chest, then try again later after we lost. But at least we would get away with the treasure!!!

The treasure chest was at the very back of the dungeon and looked like it would be tough to get if we were trying to win AND get it (be way out of the way to go get).
So I used possession on her and she used her JUMP 8 and she was able to make it all the way and grab the treasure on turn 2.

We decided to keep playing, and it turns out we ended up winning anyway. Ha, it was a fun turn of events for us. You never know what is going to happen.
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Eric Bridge
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Cephalofair wrote:
If you are not playing with perma-death, I see no problem in giving up on a scenario, essentially failing before you technically fulfill the failing conditions. And I suppose you could use this idea to rush treasure chests, but you've already spent the time to set up the scenario and play multiple rounds. Why not actually try to successfully complete the scenario to earn additional gold, experience, and check marks?

Because one method (burning cards to run and leave) takes 15 minutes and the other takes over 2 hours I suppose if I wanted to be really "cheap" I'd also sit in that last room, where I grabbed the chest and "burn off" all my high XP cards too.

See, I don't want to do this AT ALL. I think we are going to houserule that for CHESTS ONLY, one player in the group (perhaps the one to deal the killing blow) can loot the chest as a free action once all enemies in that room have been killed. Prevents a silly "chest run" afterward, and also prevents the XP "exploit" I mentioned above. We will NOT be doing this for loot tokens however, which you still have to pick up if you want them.
 
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Nancy Durgin
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ebridge wrote:
Cephalofair wrote:
If you are not playing with perma-death, I see no problem in giving up on a scenario, essentially failing before you technically fulfill the failing conditions. And I suppose you could use this idea to rush treasure chests, but you've already spent the time to set up the scenario and play multiple rounds. Why not actually try to successfully complete the scenario to earn additional gold, experience, and check marks?

Because one method (burning cards to run and leave) takes 15 minutes and the other takes over 2 hours I suppose if I wanted to be really "cheap" I'd also sit in that last room, where I grabbed the chest and "burn off" all my high XP cards too.

See, I don't want to do this AT ALL. I think we are going to houserule that for CHESTS ONLY, one player in the group (perhaps the one to deal the killing blow) can loot the chest as a free action once all enemies in that room have been killed. Prevents a silly "chest run" afterward, and also prevents the XP "exploit" I mentioned above. We will NOT be doing this for loot tokens however, which you still have to pick up if you want them.


I've only missed one chest so far, and I don't recall how close to exhausted I was when I completed the scenario. I think it might have been a close call, and I probably wasn't in the room with the chest at the end. So I didn't feel particularly entitled to it.

But I agree, if I'm in the last room with the chest when the scenario ends, I am probably just going to house rule that I can loot it, rather than rerun the whole scenario just to get it. It's all about what is fun. Maybe I will decide I want the challenge of seeing how efficiently I can get to the chest on the re-run? Just depends. I'm playing solo, so I can decide these things as I go along

For loot coins, I am playing you have to get them according to the rules. I usually leave more than half of them unclaimed, and I am okay with that. If I need more money I would rather run a side-scenario or play one in casual mode which also involves killing monsters for somebody's quest, etc.

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Greg
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So people might as well just automatically get the chest each scenario just for showing up.
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Michael Ponzini
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One of the things that bugs me is that sometimes the chests have things that are fairly important. Like random scenarios for instance. There may be even more important things in later chests. I haven't been looking at what the chests give because I have been assuming you aren't supposed to. So far we have missed maybe half the chests because we were so close to losing we had to give it up.

I just really hope I am not missing anything too important because I dont want to go back and do a scenario just for a chest.
 
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Eric Bridge
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Ponzini wrote:
One of the things that bugs me is that sometimes the chests have things that are fairly important. Like random scenarios for instance. There may be even more important things in later chests. I haven't been looking at what the chests give because I have been assuming you aren't supposed to. So far we have missed maybe half the chests because we were so close to losing we had to give it up.

I just really hope I am not missing anything too important because I dont want to go back and do a scenario just for a chest.

Except you are allowed to "speed-run" immediately afterward just to get the chest, and then leave. This just takes a few minutes, and it is VERY easy to do with high move cards and just discarding cards to avoid dying. But I also believe it is kind of silly, so we will be auto-looting all chests if all enemies in the room have been killed. You are also correct that there is some rather significant content in them.
 
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Troy Laurin
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ebridge wrote:
Ponzini wrote:
One of the things that bugs me is that sometimes the chests have things that are fairly important. Like random scenarios for instance. There may be even more important things in later chests. I haven't been looking at what the chests give because I have been assuming you aren't supposed to. So far we have missed maybe half the chests because we were so close to losing we had to give it up.

I just really hope I am not missing anything too important because I dont want to go back and do a scenario just for a chest.

Except you are allowed to "speed-run" immediately afterward just to get the chest, and then leave.

Personally, that seems far sillier and less fun than just auto-looting the chest. We didn't manage to finish the first round the one time we've gotten together so far so I don't know how it will end up going. I think I would prefer the tension to exist in needing to balance between going for the chest or the monster... but I hate the idea of re-running a scenario just for a chest.

On a similar note, our road event leading to scenario #1 saw us damaged even before the start. The question that came up was why we can't just rest up outside the dungeon before we head in, and remove the damage? Basically, enter the scenario, pretend that we lost without actually doing anything, then re-entering the scenario without going back to town, so not pulling another road event, but healing and going in with full cards.

I know it really removes the tension from the road events if we get to ignore the bad ones, but my group wasn't very impressed with the idea that a not-incompetent band of mercenaries wouldn't heal up before stepping in the front door of the known hideout of a bunch of presumably-hostile bandits.

Obviously once we can start to afford sanctuary blessings then we'd lose those as well as any negative effects, but until that happens... why wouldn't we skip them? It's not like the game isn't challenging without extra negatives.
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James Webster
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I don't know that damage is damage as we typically associate with RPGs though. I feel like damage is generally better described as wear and tear on the body and mind. Since our characters can't die per se, it seems like the loss of ability cards and 'damage' to your character is better explained as this wear and tear rather than life threatening injuries.

In order to 'heal' this wear and tear, they might need more than simple first aid and healing spells/items. They might need R&R and mental decompression on top of that to return to peak form that requires more time than they have on their current expedition.
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Troy Laurin
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artadius wrote:
In order to 'heal' this wear and tear, they might need more than simple first aid and healing spells/items. They might need R&R and mental decompression on top of that to return to peak form that requires more time than they have on their current expedition.

I would agree with you, except for:
Cephalofair wrote:
If we fail a scenario, can we immediately retry it?
Yes, your party location is still considered to be at that scenario, so you can fully recover hit points, cards, etc. and immediately do the scenario again without doing a road event, or you can return to town or do another scenario, but that may necessitate a road event before starting a scenario depending on the linking rules.

If we can leave the dungeon, then immediately turn around and retry in a fresh and healthy state... why would we ever not do that in the first place, assuming we didn't have any time-limited buffs that we need to preserve?
 
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Nancy Durgin
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MrTroy wrote:

On a similar note, our road event leading to scenario #1 saw us damaged even before the start. The question that came up was why we can't just rest up outside the dungeon before we head in, and remove the damage? Basically, enter the scenario, pretend that we lost without actually doing anything, then re-entering the scenario without going back to town, so not pulling another road event, but healing and going in with full cards.

I know it really removes the tension from the road events if we get to ignore the bad ones, but my group wasn't very impressed with the idea that a not-incompetent band of mercenaries wouldn't heal up before stepping in the front door of the known hideout of a bunch of presumably-hostile bandits.

Obviously once we can start to afford sanctuary blessings then we'd lose those as well as any negative effects, but until that happens... why wouldn't we skip them? It's not like the game isn't challenging without extra negatives.


I've had this same question, and I couldn't think of a good reason not to rest outside before going in.

Instead, I decided to just go ahead with it, figuring I would lose, but I could get some extra XP and loot, and a better idea of the strategy needed to win. My plan was to abort early if it was clearly doomed, rather than wasting too much time on it (but I don't think I actually ended up doing the abort). On at least one of those occasions I did win anyway.

These days I often do have blessings from the sanctuary, so you would definitely lose those if you rested outside before going in. That's one reason not to do it. Otherwise, I think it is a legit strategy, depending on what your group wants to do.

 
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MrTroy wrote:

If we can leave the dungeon, then immediately turn around and retry in a fresh and healthy state... why would we ever not do that in the first place, assuming we didn't have any time-limited buffs that we need to preserve?


It comes down to fun and theme, ultimately.
When playing a PC RPG or a TT RPG, you can either do a ton of research into everything, min/max all your stats and maximise your power, or you can pick things that sound cool, even if they don't synergise all that well or aren't that useful.

If you only care about "winning", go ahead and pretend you're doing treasure chest runs, or ignoring the effects of road cards.
If you care about the theme and the experience, then play it as intended.


Road events also contribute to the difficulty level.
Basic difficulty is the dungeon level appropriate to your characters, plus a road event.
Slightly easier difficulty is without the road event.
Easy difficulty is dropping a dungeon level.

Are you really "winning" the scenario if you had to drop the difficulty to do it? Some would argue not.
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Ax0r wrote:
MrTroy wrote:

If we can leave the dungeon, then immediately turn around and retry in a fresh and healthy state... why would we ever not do that in the first place, assuming we didn't have any time-limited buffs that we need to preserve?


It comes down to fun and theme, ultimately.
When playing a PC RPG or a TT RPG, you can either do a ton of research into everything, min/max all your stats and maximise your power, or you can pick things that sound cool, even if they don't synergise all that well or aren't that useful.

If you only care about "winning", go ahead and pretend you're doing treasure chest runs, or ignoring the effects of road cards.
If you care about the theme and the experience, then play it as intended.

I concur that it comes down to fun and theme, but I disagree with your dichotomy. I care about theme, but I don't find the idea of a chest run fun... unless it also gives me an opportunity to try out some combo... which for some reason I can't do in a scenario which would actually advance the campaign, expand the theme and be generally more fun.

And where in the theme does it say my party of mercenaries are so poorly prepared that they will neglect to rest or heal up before entering known hostile territory? Why does treating them as competent break the theme?

For my gaming group, I very strongly suspect that they will prefer to run a new scenario than re-run an old scenario just for a chest. XP and gold doesn't factor into the equation because we'd get that with the new scenario too, and time available to play is a much more limiting factor than number of scenarios. I will be surprised if my group manages to complete even 20 scenarios in the next year, for various reasons.

Quote:
Road events also contribute to the difficulty level.
Basic difficulty is the dungeon level appropriate to your characters, plus a road event.
Slightly easier difficulty is without the road event.
Easy difficulty is dropping a dungeon level.

Are you really "winning" the scenario if you had to drop the difficulty to do it? Some would argue not.

Would those people also argue that you didn't really win the scenario if the road event gave you a blessing? Or simply affected your reputation/gold without touching your health/conditions/cards?

It's an interesting argument, but I don't find that it holds water even if its premise is accurate.
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