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Subject: Late brake question rss

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Ismael Descolado
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In my turn I play 80 mph card (moving 4 spaces). Then, I do a LATE BRAKE, spent 1 wear points and my speed down to 60 mph before corner (taking the red line).



In the next turn, I consider my current speed 80 mph or 60 mph? It's not very clear in rulebook. I think there were missing images exemplifying this procedure.



Thanks!
 
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Chris Long
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To late brake in this scenario, here's what you would want to do:

1. Move your car forward 2 spaces along the line.
2. Late-brake spending one wear point. Take your 60mph card out and put it down on the table, replacing the 80mph one. You are now going 60mph.
3. Finish out your movement (now at 60). In this case, you only move one more space along the arrow.
4. You should finish your movement one space back from where you are in the second picture.
5. You cannot change your speed in the middle of a corner, so next turn you must plot MPS to maintain the 60mph speed you've already plotted.

Make sense?
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Fabio Pellegrino
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The black cars moved 4 spaces, that was the movement plotted, but with a late break you will move only 3 spaces, one less than in the figure

Fabio
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Andy Welch
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Why do you have to play 80 card in first place and not 60 for 1 Wear, this is based on speed circuit rules so not sure if CFR are different
 
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Jack Beckman
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I think it was just to illustrate a late brake scenario. We don't know the previous speed, so we don't know if he *had* to play 80 or not. It seems unlikely, based on the turn the car just came out of.
 
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Chris Long
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sarracenia wrote:
Why do you have to play 80 card in first place and not 60 for 1 Wear, this is based on speed circuit rules so not sure if CFR are different


Well he (most likely) could have played the 60 card instead and paid the 1 wear right off the bat. That move would be known as pushing your decel. Late-braking is basically the same action, however, you have to move forward at least one space before reducing your speed.

In practice, it's usually better to late-brake instead of pushing your decel (assuming you have the space to move). The person with the highest speed plotted moves first, so you could "overplot" to go first and then late-brake ahead of the corner in order to not pay as much wear.

The other main benefit is related to the end of the game, when you have no wear left. At that point, you'll likely be late-braking using dice. And if you fail at the dice roll, you lose a wear. Of course, if you have no wear to lose, you spin. So if this happened when you tried to hard decel, you would spin in place and not move at all for the turn. If it happened while late-braking, you would have already moved forward (perhaps several spaces) before spinning and you'll be in better shape next turn.
 
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Ismael Descolado
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radynski wrote:
To late brake in this scenario, here's what you would want to do:

1. Move your car forward 2 spaces along the line.
2. Late-brake spending one wear point. Take your 60mph card out and put it down on the table, replacing the 80mph one. You are now going 60mph.
3. Finish out your movement (now at 60). In this case, you only move one more space along the arrow.
4. You should finish your movement one space back from where you are in the second picture.
5. You cannot change your speed in the middle of a corner, so next turn you must plot MPS to maintain the 60mph speed you've already plotted.

Make sense?


Thanks for your help, Chris. I don't found in the rules that I can change my SPEED CARD in middle of movement. The rules state that I can change my SPEED.

In this case I should play a 60 mph speed card or pay a wear point due to exceed speed corner in 20 mph and move 4 spaces.
Late brake is useless in this situation.
 
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Chris Long
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descolado1 wrote:
Thanks for your help, Chris. I don't found in the rules that I can change my SPEED CARD in middle of movement. The rules state that I can change my SPEED.


Yeah, I couldn't find anything in the rules about it either, except for some references to picking up your speed card if you spin, and another one about putting a damage marker on your card if you fail the roll.

I assume this is just an oversight on the part of the person who wrote the rules, but I can only tell you how we've always played with speed cards in the past. If you late brake in the middle of your move, you pick up your old speed card and lay down the new one, to indicate to everyone what speed you're traveling *now*.

descolado1 wrote:
In this case I should play a 60 mph speed card or pay a wear point due to exceed speed corner in 20 mph and move 4 spaces.
Late brake is useless in this situation.


Well keep in mind that you can also late brake by rolling dice. If you roll dice and succeed, then you've slowed down successfully without having to spend wear to do so. In that situation, you save the wear heading into the corner.

However, you are correct that if you were going to spend the wear to late-brake, you'd be better off simply going into the corner at 80 and spending the wear there. You get further along the track that way for the same amount of wear spent.
 
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Since he's in the middle of a corner, would it cost another wear (if he stays at 80) or at least a wear check before he is able to exit the corner?
 
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Chris Long
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Mycroft Stout wrote:
Since he's in the middle of a corner, would it cost another wear (if he stays at 80) or at least a wear check before he is able to exit the corner?


Well if we look at the pictures and ignore everything we've been talking about in the comments, then here's what happens:

1. In the first picture, he plots 80 and moves forward 4 spaces along the line. Because the line allows you to go 20mph over the posted speed (40 mph) that means he's allowed to go 60. But since he's going 80 mph, he has to pay a wear point. He finishes his move in the corner.

2. On his next turn he plots "MPS" to indicate he wishes to remain at 80mph. He moves forward another 4 spaces which takes him out of the corner. He does not have to pay any additional wear.

In general, you only pay wear for a corner once. Whether you finish the corner within your turn or not does not matter. You don't have to pay wear twice.

You also can't choose to plot higher either, even if you would like to pay the wear. In the situation I outlined, it would be illegal to plot 100. You cannot increase your speed in the middle of a corner. Whatever speed you entered at is what you have to leave at.

Expert Mode:
Okay, there are two situations in which what I just said is not entirely true, and both of them have to deal with corners where the speed of the corner changes in the middle of the corner. If you ended your move in the middle of a corner, and the speed increases on the next space, you could increase your speed similarly. The trick here is that you can't spend more wear than you did at entry. The other edge case is where the speed of a corner slows down. Under that case, if you entered the corner for free, but the corner slows down more than you were previously going, you can still plot the same speed next turn and pay the difference in wear. But a corner which slows speed in the middle is the only instance where you can spend *more* wear after you entered the corner. Otherwise, you're always stuck at whatever wear expenditure you started at.
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Ismael Descolado
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Quote:
Well keep in mind that you can also late brake by rolling dice. If you roll dice and succeed, then you've slowed down successfully without having to spend wear to do so. In that situation, you save the wear heading into the corner.


Yes, I know. I don't found in the rules what happens if roll dice fail in a late brake. I assume that you suffer -20 mph penalty in brake attribute.
 
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Chris Long
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descolado1 wrote:
Quote:
Well keep in mind that you can also late brake by rolling dice. If you roll dice and succeed, then you've slowed down successfully without having to spend wear to do so. In that situation, you save the wear heading into the corner.


Yes, I know. I don't found in the rules what happens if roll dice fail in a late brake. I assume that you suffer -20 mph penalty in brake attribute.


Well if you fail at braking (or hard decel) you suffer a -20 to your decel and a penalty of losing 1 wear. If you have no wear left, you spin. However, as long as you didn't spin, you do still go the speed you were attempting to reduce to. So whether you succeed or fail the roll, you'll still be going 60 at the end of it.

I couldn't find the die roll chart in the online rules, but it is in the menu:

http://lucidphoenix.com/sc/rules/core/chart.asp
 
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Michael Polcen
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I would say this covers the question of which speed card should be in front of you after late braking:

Clean Up
After all players have moved, each player picks up any extra speed cards, leaving in front of them only the speed card representing the speed they finished the turn at. [Page 8]
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Ismael Descolado
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SLOTerp wrote:
I would say this covers the question of which speed card should be in front of you after late braking:

Clean Up
After all players have moved, each player picks up any extra speed cards, leaving in front of them only the speed card representing the speed they finished the turn at. [Page 8]


Humm... perfect, you are right, this escaped me. CLEAN UP would be a third phase of game because is very important.

1) Planning Phase
2) Movement Phase
3) Cleanup Phase
 
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Garry Kaluzny
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The purpose of using "late braking" is to help pass another car, or to get into a corner before another car. As an example, if you are next to another car, but the other car is to the "inside" of the track relative to that next corner, if both cars plot the same speed, the car to the inside moves first. This will allow the inside car to probably take the cornering arrow (where the outside car won't be able to get the benefit of the arrow), or to possibly end up in the shortest path around the corner, forcing the outside car to possibly end up in the outside lane of a two-space long corner, thus getting stuck at the same speed for the next turn, while the car that took the inside can speed away on the next turn. (This is a good tactic for shaking off following cars, BTW.)

However, let's say the outside car plotted a speed 20 mph (or more) faster than the inside car. Then the outside car will move first. But, the outside car can, after moving at least one space, use "late braking" to slow and not have to spend as much wear (or possibly to avoid having to take a Chance roll) in that corner. Hence, the outside car may have the advantage by using the cornering arrow, and forcing that inside car to go the long way around the corner.

RustyDM
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