Kenny Felts
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I'm looking for verification that you can indeed use items (like the broken bottle starting item), or the discovery to add to weapon level, or any other such effect AFTER you draw an event card but before you resolve its effects.

I know there have been posts by the designer (a year or more ago) stating that you can't use those things to prevent a bad effect after viewing the card (exceptions being the temporary boosts).

Those questions pertained to the old edition and the new rules seem to suggest that you can use "things" in response to event or adventure cards before resolving the effect.

Can anyone confirm that this is indeed the intended rule for the new edition?
 
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Eric Z
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From the new rule book (page 23 I believe):

Starting Equipment, Treasures, and some built Items often have an effect that need to be deliberately used. Unless noted otherwise, they can be used by any character at any time, including during the Event Phase, while resolving an Action, or (for Starting Equipment) at the start of the game. Only the Basket and Sack are exceptions and must be assigned during planning (see appendix, pages 37 and 40).





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Kenny Felts
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Yes, it's that paragraph that makes me think that you can use "things" between event card reveal and event card resolution, especially the part "during the Event Phase".

However, the old version of the rules also included the phrase "use at anytime" and Ignacy had ruled that you can't use items/abilities in this way.

See the discussion here: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1025535/character-ability-t...

I just want to make sure that this was an intended change and departure from the old ruling. It's possible, although I don't think intended, that "during the Event Phase" might just mean you can use "things" in that phase before drawing the card and in that phase after resolving the card, but not between drawing and resolving.
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Eric Z
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Oh, I see. I hadn't realized that there was ambiguity for some people in the event phase.

After reviewing the thread you indicated and reviewing the rule book again, I would have to say no, there has been no change in the rules and you cannot interrupt the resolution of a card during the Event Phase. On page 8 of the new rule book:

Most Event Effects burden players with additional problems and challenges (e.g. through placement of various markers).
Sometimes they reduce morale, or the level of the Roof, Palisade, or Weapons.

These losses apply immediately. If you cannot fulfill the loss requirements (or reduce the Roof/Palisade/Weapon level
any further), each character suffers 1 wound (see also Unfulfilled Demand on page 23). The only exception is the Morale
track; if morale is already at its lowest point, it does not sink further, and characters do not suffer wounds because of
this.


You have to be prepared ahead of time, and this is part of the challenge of the game.

Note: This doesn't apply to hunting. Page 14 of the rule book shows that a beast card is drawn at the beginning of the hunt action, and then you enter the combat phase of the hunt action . There appears to be a gap between drawing the card and executing combat. The rules seem to reflect this (page 14):

Once combat commences (during the Hunt Action, due to an Event, Adventure, or Mystery card, or the Hungry Animals
die), the following steps are resolved in order (printed left to right on the card):

1. The Beast’s (or other enemy’s) strength is compared to the current Weapon level. If the Weapon level is lower,
the resolving character suffers as many wounds as the difference between the values. Before combat, you can
use Treasures, Starting Equipment and Special abilities to temporarily increase the Weapon level
(this applies
only for the current combat; the Weapon level track is not adjusted). If this is done, compare this new temporary
total (which can include multiple sources) to the enemy’s strength
...







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Kenny Felts
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What about using these things after rolling dice but before applying effects? You obviously can use abilities to re-roll failures and change clouds, but what about using items or discovery tokens after rolling the hungry animal die and getting -palisade or lose food results? Can you kill a goat to get food after rolling rain clouds to get a food to discard?

Basically, is it only event effects that occur immediately? What about adventure and dice roll effects? Can you interrupt these? You certainly can with some abilities (the re-rolling failures and changing clouds abilities are useless otherwise), can all items and discovery tokens interrupt adventure and dice roll effects?
 
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Eric Z
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picklethehutt wrote:
What about using these things after rolling dice but before applying effects? You obviously can use abilities to re-roll failures and change clouds, but what about using items or discovery tokens after rolling the hungry animal die and getting -palisade or lose food results? Can you kill a goat to get food after rolling rain clouds to get a food to discard?

Basically, is it only event effects that occur immediately? What about adventure and dice roll effects? Can you interrupt these? You certainly can with some abilities (the re-rolling failures and changing clouds abilities are useless otherwise), can all items and discovery tokens interrupt adventure and dice roll effects?


You're branching off from the other thread you had linked, where Ignacy had specifically addressed using skills to do something after the threat is revealed. You're delving into other things, but I believe that the new rule book seems to be clear on these circumstances. Let's work through them.



Re-roll failures and change clouds

These are covered by the new rule book and specifically call them out (page 36):

(Referring to Explorer's special abilities)
Lucky
Discard 2 Determination tokens to reroll any green die rolled during the Explore Action.


(Referring to Cook's special abilities)
Hooch
Discard 3 Determination tokens to ignore 1 {RAIN} in the Weather Phase, or to treat 1 {SNOW}as if it were {RAIN}. This
ability may be used after the Weather dice have been rolled
.




Hungry animal die rolls

For -Palisade and -Food, the cost is according to the rules of Unfulfilled Demand (page 21):

If food cannot be discarded or the Palisade level cannot be decreased, each character suffers 1 wound (Unfulfilled
Demand)
.


In the rules for Unfulfilled Demand (page 23), you see the following statements:

During the game, you are often affected by negative effects (e.g. from cards). You can be required to discard things (e.g.
resources, cards, or Determination tokens); to have a specific Weapon level; to reduce the Roof, Palisade, or Weapon
level; etc. If such a demand cannot be fully fulfilled, you suffer 1 wound for each resource/level you cannot fulfill (e.g. 2
wounds if 2 food must be discarded but none is available)...


...If something can be discarded, it must be. You cannot decide to suffer wounds in order to prevent having to discard
something. However, you are not forced to trade in a Discovery token or use any Starting Equipment to meet the loss.


So the rules of Unfulfilled Demand do not force you to discard discovery tokens or starting items, but this implies that it is an option.

Note: You can use weapons after the hungry animal die roll. The rule book specifically indicates this on page 21:

Any effect which temporarily increases the Weapon level can be used in this step and helps protect the group.




Weather effects

Reading the rules on Weather (page 21), you will see that they also follow the rules of Unfulfilled Demand:

Count the number of {SNOW} (on dice and tokens). For each snow cloud, 1 wood must be discarded. If this is not
possible, each player in camp suffers 1 wound (according to the rules for Unfulfilled Demand, see page 23)


and again:

Example: The rain die has been rolled and shows 2 rain clouds. The Weather space also contains the snow cloud
token. The Roof level is 1, and you possess 3 wood and 1 food. First, you must discard 1 wood due to the snow
cloud token. Then, a total of 3 clouds are visible and the Roof level is only 1, so 2 levels of protection are missing.
You must discard 2 wood and 2 food. You only have 2 wood and 1 food, so this is discarded, and then each
character suffers 1 wound (Unfulfilled Demand).


As listed above, you are able to use Discovery Tokens and Starting Items to deal with Unfulfilled Demand. So, yes, you can sacrifice a goat to get food after rolling rain clouds.



Conclusion:
The most crucial area that seems to be overlooked (at least, in the thread that you linked before) are the Unfulfilled Demand rules. The rule book specifically calls out Weather Dice and the Hungry Animal die as triggering Unfulfilled Demand (which allows for using starting items and discovery tokens). Other effects, such as rolling building dice, do not rely on Unfulfilled Demand and cannot be "interrupted" or changed, unless specifically called out in the rules (the Explorer's Lucky ability, the Cook's Hooch ability).

Event cards can trigger the Palisade level to fall. If you do not have the required level of Palisade, it will trigger Unfulfilled Demand, which will start wounding you. If you have a +Palisade Discovery Token, you can discard this to negate the -Palisade because Unfulfilled Demand allows for that. Unfulfilled Demand rules kick in after the Event card is resolved. This is completely different from using a special ability after drawing an Event card to change the outcome of the Event card (Ignacy called this Time Travel, and it's not allowed).

Does this clear it up for you?







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Oliver Koenig
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I just realized, one of the question was alwasys if the soldier's ability could be used to prevent wounds from missing palisades (isn't it the same as the discovery token and prevents unfulfilled demand ..)
This one is EXPLICITLY prohibited in the new rules!

Defensive plan
Discard 3 Determination tokens to increase the
Palisade or Weapon level by 1. The Palisade
level can only be increased if the Shelter has
been built. This ability cannot be used in
response to a card being revealed and before
the effect of that card is resolved.

I think you covered most or all cases, Eric!
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Eric Z
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Fantastic, that's consistent with how I read the rules above. There appears to be stark contrast between stuff you have (starting items, discovery tokens), and stuff you do (special abilities).

(Although a Goat token implies having to do something to it in order for it to be food, the rules state otherwise. All discovery tokens and starting items are things you have, even if you have to convert them Before using it).

I was trying to locate an explicit example of this, and you've found the jackpot Oliver. Thanks!

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Kenny Felts
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Thanks for all the effort in answering questions.

I think the big issue I had was not seeing that it's unfulfilled demand that can be reacted to, not the card effect itself.

So, you can't use the broken bottle to increase weapon level after seeing a beast to avoid the damage because the strength is too high (as this is not unfulfilled demand). You can, however, use it to avoid wounds caused if you have to reduce weapon level lower than you have (as this is unfulfilled demand). Sound right?
 
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picklethehutt wrote:
Thanks for all the effort in answering questions.

I think the big issue I had was not seeing that it's unfulfilled demand that can be reacted to, not the card effect itself.

So, you can't use the broken bottle to increase weapon level after seeing a beast to avoid the damage because the strength is too high (as this is not unfulfilled demand). You can, however, use it to avoid wounds caused if you have to reduce weapon level lower than you have (as this is unfulfilled demand). Sound right?


That isn't right, read this from the post above:

Llucid wrote:


Note: This doesn't apply to hunting. Page 14 of the rule book shows that a beast card is drawn at the beginning of the hunt action, and then you enter the combat phase of the hunt action . There appears to be a gap between drawing the card and executing combat. The rules seem to reflect this (page 14):

Once combat commences (during the Hunt Action, due to an Event, Adventure, or Mystery card, or the Hungry Animals
die), the following steps are resolved in order (printed left to right on the card):

1. The Beast’s (or other enemy’s) strength is compared to the current Weapon level. If the Weapon level is lower,
the resolving character suffers as many wounds as the difference between the values. Before combat, you can
use Treasures, Starting Equipment and Special abilities to temporarily increase the Weapon level
(this applies
only for the current combat; the Weapon level track is not adjusted). If this is done, compare this new temporary
total (which can include multiple sources) to the enemy’s strength
...





Combat hasn't begun until after you have revealed the card, so you CAN use abilities/items/etc. to increase your strength. The quote from the post above indicates this and references the rules that show you can.
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Kenny Felts
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That specifically mentions temporary bonuses (like the pistol) not permanent bonuses (like the broken bottle).
 
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picklethehutt wrote:
That specifically mentions temporary bonuses (like the pistol) not permanent bonuses (like the broken bottle).


I am pretty sure that it only mentions temporary because it assumes that you would spend any permanent bonuses for weapons immediately upon getting them. I don't think this is implied as a limit to being able to use them in these circumstances.
 
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Eric Z
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They're both starting equipment, the rules don't differentiate between permanent and temporary bonuses.

You're starting to think along the right lines, it's just that combat is different from the other examples. The rules specifically say you can use weapons after revealing the beast card.

Edit: like the Rev says above, I believe all the "this combat only" talk is just to highlight the scope of the bonus, not to limit what weapons can be used. They want to make sure that you understand temporary bonuses don't last through multiple rounds of combat.
 
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Kenny Felts
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I read the following bit about combat very differently then.

"Before combat, you can use Treasures, Starting Equipment and Special abilities to temporarily increase the Weapon level.."

Why use the word temporary if you can use anything? It seems clear to me that the only reason to include that is to mean that only Treasure, Starting Equipment (like the pistol) and Special abilities (like the soldier) that provide temporary bonuses can be applied before combat.

If the intention really was to allow everything to be used, why not just say that you can apply bonuses from Treasures. Starting Equipment and Special abilities before combat?
 
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picklethehutt wrote:

If the intention really was to allow everything to be used, why not just say that you can apply bonuses from Treasures. Starting Equipment and Special abilities before combat?


As I said above, I believe they focus on "temporary" because they just assume you would already have applied any permanent bonuses (because why wouldn't you). This is one of the rare situations where you can use a temporary weapons bonus so they are just pointing that out.

Until we get clarification we are just starting to go in circles here, but I truly believe that there is no legitimate reason to exclude the use of permanent weapons bonuses in this situation. Players would just apply the "broken bottle" permanent bonus before they even get to the hunting action if that were the case.

I have a hard time imagining a situation where you wouldn't just apply the broken bottle bonuses long before you reached combat anyway.
 
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I agree that this discussion has probably reached its end, baring a developer rules clarification.

I would, however, like to give an example of why you may not want to use permanent weapon bonuses before hunting.

Using the +weapon level broken bottle or discovery token can save a wound or two during the hunt, but sometimes a wound or two now to one character is preferable to the risk of weapon level being 0 with no way to immediately increase it.

If you use the broken bottle (and have no way other than a building action to increase weapon level) and in a hunt have to reduce weapon level to 0, then you can't trade in the goat for food (possibly to avoid starving), or quickly increase weapon level to deal with a +beast strength token on a tile (potential for lots of wounds), or to quickly prepare for rolling the beast die (potential for wounds for everyone).

If you aren't playing with the soldier (who can use determination to give +weapon level to deal with the above), then there are many times in which I'd rather hold on to the last broken bottle use or a +weapon level discovery token rather than use it for a hunt.
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