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Olivier Cipiere
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Hi all,

This is my proposal for the 2017 Two-Player Print and Play Game Design Contest

Karnak & Louxor is a 15 minutes card game that see two opposing high priests of ancient Egypt trying to prove to the Pharaoh that their temple is the gods' most favored one (Karnak or Louxor).

You can download the rules here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxbDw13fW5a9US1jcjJRRWF2b1...

And the 28 cards here :
In Color
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxbDw13fW5a9UTJDUXQtbE13Vk...

Low Ink
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxbDw13fW5a9eGRUNEVEN24zaW...

The game's components are 28 cards :
1 card of value 1
2 cards of value 2
3 cards of value 3
4 cards of value 4
5 cards of value 5
6 cards of value 6
7 cards of value 7

The object of the game is to get in your temple the majority of cards type, and score the corresponding values.
The twist of the game is that there is no way to use cards directly from your hand to score points. You always need an indirect move that gives the opportunity first to your opponent to use the card you just put on the table.

Each card type represents one ancient Egyptian god, and each card type has a special power that will manipulate the cards on the table, or in players hands.

Mechanisms :
Majority
Collection
Special powers
Hand Management
Draft (a weird one)

Here is a picture of a mid-game situation.



I would like to compete for :
Best Date Night Game
Best Casual/Gateway Game
Best Use of Theme
Best Art/Graphic Design
Best New Mechanic
Best New Designer
Best Game

Feedback is most welcome, and suggestions even more.

Cheers!!

Olivier.

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Karnak & Louxor - Game Development
Game Development

2017-02-19 - Idea Phase

I wanted to design a card game with a pyramidal card deck, like in Pairs and Koryo.

After multiple trials and errors, I came up with this setup:

28 cards fom 1 to 7.
From 1 card of value 1 to 7 cards of value 7.

Shuffle the cards and deal 10 cards face down to each player.
Place 4 cards face up in the center of the table. This would be the drafting pool.
Place the remaining 4 cards in a face down deck above the face up cards

Turn sequence for each player :
1/ Place a card from your Hand face down in front of a face up card in the pool
2/ Resolve the power on that face up card
3/ Take that card and put it in you score area
4/ Turn your offering face up, and fill the empty space in the pool with the face down card of step 1

The 2 players would alternate this turn sequence until they have no more cards in hand, and count their points based on the majorities in the score area.

Cards powers would affect the content of the different play zones:
* exchange a card from the pool with a card from your score zone
* exchange a card from your hand with a card from the face down deck
* exchange a card from your opponent's score zone with the pool
etc...

Cards values will have to be balanced with the strength of their powers.

The whole idea of the mechanism is that each player has in his hand the cards that his opponent may play the turn after.
When a card is selected for offering by one player, it is then placed in the pool of possible actions for the other player.

So the players will have to manipulate the content of the play areas, to deny the opponenent's card types that will give him/her advantage, while at the same time try to build majorities.

The 4 face down cards serve the purpose of hidden information, but certain cards would enable players to draw from it, and place new cards in it to introduce at the same time some gambling and long term planning as this deck will cycle during the end game.

The Egyptian theme idea came from the pyramidal structure of the cards values.
Cards would be gods with powers.
Score area would be the temple.
The card pool would be the Nile valley and the hidden cards the Tomb.


2017-02-26 - Components Ready

The first versions of the PnP files are ready.
The powers of the gods and their rank in the pyramid went through numerous iterations.
The selected gods are the one for which I found consistent and copyright free illustration, not my first choice. (I want Anubis, Ra and Osiris to be in there).
Hopefully there will be more on the artwork later.

Now is the time for some honnest playtesting and feedback, including yours

2017-03-19 - Major design update

After many playtests and feedback (including BGG's community playtests), I've decided to give the game more player's interaction, and to make the game outcome less predicable in the final turns.

Here are the detailed changes :
Cards 2 and 3 allow now players to mess with their opponent's temple and disrupt majorities. Card 2 is even transferring a god from your opponent's temple to yours (at a cost of 2 points) It makes it a very powerful card that you want your opponent to offer you, or hide it under the tomb.
Card 4 allows players to exchange gods between the valley and their temple (was previously the power of card 3).

Card 6 allows players to put cards under the tomb to deny options to their opponent (was previously the power of Card 4)

Cards 1, 5 and 7 are unchanged.

The game is now more aggressive, and it is not rare to see a game changing move in the last 3 turns.

2017-03-27 - Major design update

During the CNJ playtest night last week, I received many feedback about the game :

Globally the game flow works an players have fun.
The "offering" mechanism takes half a game to make its way in the mind of new players, but it feels fresh and original.
Also, the theme works fine. Players do use the names of the play zones (Valley / Tomb / Temple), and to my surprise call the gods by their names, and not their numbers.

There are many things to improve nonetheless that I noticed observing games, or received as feedback after the games :

1. Some players would like to have a little bit more control.
2. Some cards powers do not feel too useful (Ra(1), Thot(3), Horus(7))
3. Seth(2) is too powerful, and is always put under tomb (which is easy are they are only 2). It almost never shows up in the valley. Every player that offered it lost the game
4. The content of the valley is too static and sometimes there is no good option at all. It feels a bit frustrating.
5. In the first turns, if there are a lot of cards implying temple manipulation in the valley (2, 3, 4, 5), they feel useless as the temples are empty.
6. Players have a hard time remembering what is under the tomb when it starts to cycle as too much is already going on in the temples. It does not work as I expected but does not seem to bother players. so it may not be an issue...
7. I occasionally observed manipulation errors where players put cards to their hand instead of the temple, causing small game flow breakdowns.

So here is a new version of the game trying to address issues 2, 3, 4 :

Ra(1) now can break the tie for one majority
Seth(2) power can now exchange gods between the 2 temples, which is more balanced
Thot has now the power that used to be Seth's (take a god from our opponent's temple, and give Thot to your opponent) A bit more balanced as you give 3 points.
Horus (7) forces players to make the valley and the tomb to cycle more.

2017-04-23 - Major design update
Continuing tweaking the game after player's feedback, I've introduced a major change to the setup.

After deciding who goes first, and before taking turns, players must secretly select a god from their hand with a value equal to 4 or greater as a starting god in their temple.

This avoids having some gods in the valley with useless power in the first turns, and add a bit of an ouverture/double guessing twist in the opening.

As suggested to me multiple times, I've also added a 2-games variant where players play 2 games alternating as first player, and add their points to determine the winner.

As always, feedback welcome.

Cheers!!

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Olivier Cipiere
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Karnak & Louxor - Artwork
Artwork

2017-03-02

I have the great pleasure to announce that Thomas Brin (mataujall) will draw the artwork for Karnak&Louxor.
You can check out his amazing talent at https://mataujallart.carbonmade.com/

2017-03-22

Here is the complete sketches Lineup


Ra Seth Thot Isis Anubis Osiris Horus

2017-04-17

Artwork is now finalized


Ra Thot Seth Isis Anubis Osiris Horus

2017-04-27

Cards graphic design finalized



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Olivier Cipiere
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Game Design Contests
2017-05-27
Winner of the game design contest final round of Ludinam Festival in Besançon France

2017-07-08
BGG 2 players PnP contest

Best Use of Theme: 1st Place
Best Art/Graphic Design: 1st Place
Best New Designer: 2nd Place
Best Date Night Game : 4th place
 
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JK
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - idea phase
Welcome to the contest. Your game idea sounds very cool.
JK
 
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Olivier Cipiere
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready
Components Ready

The first versions of the PnP files are ready.
The powers of the gods and their rank in the pyramid went through numerous iterations.
The selected gods are the one for which I found consistent and copyright free illustration, not my first choice. (I want Anubis, Ra and Osiris to be in there).
Hopefully there will be more on the artwork later.

You can download the rules here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxbDw13fW5a9US1jcjJRRWF2b1...

And the 28 cards here :
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxbDw13fW5a9UTJDUXQtbE13Vk...

Now is the time for some honnest playtesting and feedback, including yours.

Cheers!!
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready
Great news Olivier!

I will move the game to Components Ready in the list of entries.

Cheers,
JK
 
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Olivier Cipiere
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready
I have the great pleasure to announce that Thomas Brin (mataujall) will draw the artwork for Karnak&Louxor.

You can check out his amazing talent at https://mataujallart.carbonmade.com/

As a sneak peek, here is a sketch of the mysterious Osiris.

Enjoy !!

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andrew dunbar
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready
Did a couple of playtests today - here's feedback (take all with a pinch of salt as just opinions!):

Theme - I liked the theme. Egyptian mythology is a good call and I was motivated to try it.

Mechanics - Took us a game to get to grips with it (why you were doing certain things, how scoring worked, how certain god powers worked) but overall simple to understand and easy to play

Timing - I think this took us around 15 mins to play each time

Game play - once we understood the game, it did feel a bit formulaic at times (for example we'd go for the Horus cards, then the Sobek cards then anything else. It felt like you could only easily get 2 maybe 3 gods to be sure of scoring. Felt like luck played a big part in things eg in one game we both went for the Horus set and it was luck of the draw who ended up getting it - there were a few tactics going on but it felt like we were essentially moving the same cards around a bit. Skill felt like it was secondary to luck.

Specific feedback -
Language in the rulebook would be improved by an editor - a couple of weird phrasing in there stood out (but didn't impact the game) eg first two sentences could be better worded.Third sentence, "interfere" feels like an odd choice of word.

When no gods in your hand/temple - at start/end of game - doesn't feel great not being able to do anything but it does work.

Using the Seth God power - to exchange another god from the Valley... I assume that means you can't exchange Seth (but this could be clearer)

It would be good to have a simple suggestion around "how to play" or tactics in the rulebook

Overall it feels like there's a really nice game in there, quick to play and could be really immersive with good cards. Great theme! I do feel you want to watch the formulaic play and balance the luck element a little bit more.

Thanks for the game - lots of fun!



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Olivier Cipiere
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (but no artwork yet)

Thank you very much for testing and taking the time to write your feedback.

This is immensely valuable.

krone9 wrote:

Specific feedback -
Language in the rulebook would be improved by an editor - a couple of weird phrasing in there stood out (but didn't impact the game) eg first two sentences could be better worded.Third sentence, "interfere" feels like an odd choice of word.


As you may have guessed, English is not my mother tongue. I'll rework the wording of that part.

krone9 wrote:

Using the Seth God power - to exchange another god from the Valley... I assume that means you can't exchange Seth (but this could be clearer)

It would be good to have a simple suggestion around "how to play" or tactics in the rulebook

Will do.

krone9 wrote:

I do feel you want to watch the formulaic play and balance the luck element a little bit more.

I tend to agree that the early game is similar from one game to the other (Horus then Sobek). I need to balance cards so that other early game strategies could be viable.
Luck of draw can be balanced by interacting with the tomb where you want to put cards for a later direct draw to temple with Anubis when the tomb is starting to cycle. Maybe it's not enough, I'll look into it.
I'm targeting 40% Luck, 60% Skill. This is a 15 minutes card game after all .

krone9 wrote:
Overall it feels like there's a really nice game in there, quick to play and could be really immersive with good cards. Great theme!
Thanks for the game - lots of fun!

My pleasure really thanks to you again !!
 
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (but no artwork yet)
PLAYTESTER SPOT PRIZES

This game is eligible for a playtester spot prize for the next week!

See this post for more details.
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Ghislain LEVEQUE
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (artwork in progress)
I'm in, I printed the rules and cards and put the cards in sleeves for quick playtesting.

The rules are totally clear for me, I had absolutely no question after reading them.

I skipped the "Playing tips" as I did not want to spoil the game.

I played a game versus myself. For a deduction game like this one, it's pretty tough to do it correctly, you have to force yourself to ignore that you know your opponent's hand.

The game is really tense and I love how you can win by collecting the smallest cards.

During my game, one of the players focused on winning a majority on a high card (the 6) quickly while the other one tried to sneak in and prepare a slow attack on the 7 while collecting smaller cards.

Both used the god powers in different ways and finally one player had the 1, the 6 and the 7 majority while the other one had the 5, 4, 3 and 2. On the last turn, this player did play on a 2 in the valley, forcing his opponent to put the 1 back in the valley and thus 5+4+3+2=14 won against 6+7=13

I know other card games that use cards for various usage, but this one forces you to use every card you play in three different ways : what card do you want to collect, what power do you want to use and what card do you offer to your opponent. This is really smart.

If I had to change something :

- in the rules, in the image showing the setup I would place the two players on opposite sides of the table and not side by side

- remove the text from the cards, keep it in the rules

- raise the size of the icons on the cards and add color to the various elements of the game (for example : green for valley, black for tomb, blue for your temple, red for opponent's temple and yellow for you hand). It would help reading the cards effects quicker and you could even add a small reminder near the card number in the corners.

Great game, congratulations !
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Ghislain LEVEQUE
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (artwork in progress)
shiperu wrote:
I have the great pleasure to announce that Thomas Brin (mataujall) will draw the artwork for Karnak&Louxor.


I should not have googled Thomas Brin :



whistle
 
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Olivier Cipiere
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (artwork in progress)
Thank you so much for giving it a try and such detailed report

A few commments on your suggestions
courtjus wrote:

If I had to change something :

- in the rules, in the image showing the setup I would place the two players on opposite sides of the table and not side by side

will do

courtjus wrote:

- remove the text from the cards, keep it in the rules

Depending on the players, I have sometimes the exact opposite comment
This is why I decided to have both Icons and Text on the cards.

courtjus wrote:

- raise the size of the icons on the cards and add color to the various elements of the game (for example : green for valley, black for tomb, blue for your temple, red for opponent's temple and yellow for you hand). It would help reading the cards effects quicker and you could even add a small reminder near the card number in the corners.

I'll give it a try to see how it blends with the rest of the cards layout. That is still to be finalized anyway.

courtjus wrote:

Great game, congratulations !


Thanks !!
 
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Scott Allen
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (artwork in progress)
I'll try to play this soon.

Found a typo on card #3 - "another" is mis-spelled.
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (artwork in progress)
Narrow Gate Games wrote:
I'll try to play this soon.

Found a typo on card #3 - "another" is mis-spelled.


thanks, fixed.
 
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Olivier Cipiere
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Isis artwork
I just received this amazing sketch of Isis from mataujall


Enjoy!!
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (artwork in progress)
shiperu wrote:
The selected gods are the one for which I found consistent and copyright free illustration, not my first choice. (I want Anubis, Ra and Osiris to be in there).

Apparantly, Ra and Horus was turned into the same god later.
Horus of the two horizons.
I would not have learned that if you had just used Ra

I have played this only once, but it seems to me that this game does perfectly what it is trying to do.
And it was fun and easy to learn.
I will try to poke more holes in it later, but for now well done

I would keep the text on the cards.
The game would have been far less enjoyable if we had to check back to the rules every other second.
We would never start to remember them from the icons.
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Olivier Cipiere
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (artwork in progress)
Sindrelf wrote:
shiperu wrote:
The selected gods are the one for which I found consistent and copyright free illustration, not my first choice. (I want Anubis, Ra and Osiris to be in there).

Apparantly, Ra and Horus was turned into the same god later.
Horus of the two horizons.
I would not have learned that if you had just used Ra

I didn't knew that surprise

Sindrelf wrote:

I have played this only once, but it seems to me that this game does perfectly what it is trying to do.
And it was fun and easy to learn.
I will try to poke more holes in it later, but for now well done

Thanks. I'll be happy to look at flaws you will find.

Sindrelf wrote:

I would keep the text on the cards.
The game would have been far less enjoyable if we had to check back to the rules every other second.
We would never start to remember them from the icons.

Agreed. Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (artwork in progress)
Hi Olivier,

This is a really interesting game - much more depth than it seemed at first glance. I like the theme a lot as well. The "Valley," "Tomb" and "Temple" areas make sense and their roles in the game fit well.

So far I've only play tested with myself, but I can also see how the element of trying to deduce your opponent's final cards can be intriguing.

Here are a few thoughts for your consideration:

1) The Revelation step seemed unnecessary to me? There is no action in the game that can impact the Offering card, so it really doesn't seem to matter if it is offered face up or face down. In fact offering it face-up will give your opponent time to ponder it before it's their play.

2) I would like to see more ways to directly attack your opponent or influence their play. The card that seems to have the most impact is Seth (I assume when it says "Exchange another card from the Valley with a god from your opponent's Temple" that you get to choose the Temple card? It doesn't specify), but there are only 2 of those. Beyond that, it's just kind of a race.

There might be some simple tweaks, like with Horus instead of exchanging cards with your opponent (i.e. they get to choose what they give you) you choose one to give them and then pick one of theirs at random. That gives the player that uses Horus a very slight advantage in the trade.

I was also trying to imagine the introduction of action cards that you could play on your opponent's turn (move offering to a different god, block opponent's temple, etc.), but those feel like they would mess too much with the simplicity and strategy of the game you designed. So I'm just thinking more of little things to mess with your opponent's hand or temple a bit more.

3) Along the same lines -- and maybe a good reason for the face-down Offering -- I'd like to see the Sobek power include the Offering as an option. So you could make your Offering face-down, invoke Sobek, and then place your Offering into the tomb without your opponent knowing what it is.

I hope something in there was helpful to you. As with all feedback, please take what is useful and toss out the rest.

Good luck with your game!
David


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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (artwork in progress)
dsals wrote:
1) The Revelation step seemed unnecessary to me? There is no action in the game that can impact the Offering card, so it really doesn't seem to matter if it is offered face up or face down. In fact offering it face-up will give your opponent time to ponder it before it's their play.


I think it could come into play when a player is offering to Horus.
What you would want to exchange with the other player may differ depending on what card was offered.
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (artwork in progress)
Sindrelf wrote:
dsals wrote:
1) The Revelation step seemed unnecessary to me? There is no action in the game that can impact the Offering card, so it really doesn't seem to matter if it is offered face up or face down. In fact offering it face-up will give your opponent time to ponder it before it's their play.


I think it could come into play when a player is offering to Horus.
What you would want to exchange with the other player may differ depending on what card was offered.


Ah, good point. I missed that dynamic. Downside of play testing solo
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Re: [WIP] Karnak & Louxor (2-player PnP contest) - 28 cards only - Components ready (artwork in progress)
Hi David,

Many thanks for your very valuable feedback.

dsals wrote:

1) The Revelation step seemed unnecessary to me? There is no action in the game that can impact the Offering card, so it really doesn't seem to matter if it is offered face up or face down. In fact offering it face-up will give your opponent time to ponder it before it's their play.

As Sindrelf said, It may slightly interfere with Horus power.
Also, during my first playtests, the offering was face up, and I noticed that players were confused about the offering being part of the valley or not, and could be legal target of Sobek, Seth or Khnum power. When played face-down, the confusion disappeared.

dsals wrote:

2) I would like to see more ways to directly attack your opponent or influence their play. The card that seems to have the most impact is Seth (I assume when it says "Exchange another card from the Valley with a god from your opponent's Temple" that you get to choose the Temple card? It doesn't specify), but there are only 2 of those. Beyond that, it's just kind of a race.

I hear you there. I'm thinking of switching Khnum(3) and Seth(2) powers to make the game a little more aggressive.
I'm also thinking of changing Toth(4)power to bring more interaction between the 2 players.
I need to playtest and check the balance of the changes before submitting an update.

dsals wrote:

There might be some simple tweaks, like with Horus instead of exchanging cards with your opponent (i.e. they get to choose what they give you) you choose one to give them and then pick one of theirs at random. That gives the player that uses Horus a very slight advantage in the trade.

As Horus is the god that provides the most points if you get the majority, I need his power to remain as neutral as possible otherwise any other strategy than "get as much Horus as you can" would not be viable.

dsals wrote:

I was also trying to imagine the introduction of action cards that you could play on your opponent's turn (move offering to a different god, block opponent's temple, etc.), but those feel like they would mess too much with the simplicity and strategy of the game you designed. So I'm just thinking more of little things to mess with your opponent's hand or temple a bit more.

3) Along the same lines -- and maybe a good reason for the face-down Offering -- I'd like to see the Sobek power include the Offering as an option. So you could make your Offering face-down, invoke Sobek, and then place your Offering into the tomb without your opponent knowing what it is.

Interesting suggestions. I'll think of it.

dsals wrote:

I hope something in there was helpful to you. As with all feedback, please take what is useful and toss out the rest.

Good luck with your game!


Thank you !!
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Ra Artwork
Here comes the mighty Ra.
Ra will replace Bastet as card n°1 in the final version with artwork.
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Olivier Cipiere
France
Courbevoie
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Seth Artwork

and now Seth, the cunning
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