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Subject: 7Springs minimum stay requirement rss

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The Pariah
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natsean wrote:
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Capriciousness.

I don't fit the target audience any longer.


These two ideas seem mutually exclusive to me. Either it was capricious or they did it specifically to exclude YOU and yours from the convention.

Or did you mean it as two possible reasons?



You're right - I was spitballing ideas. I was asked what possible reasons there could be; and I offered some.


natsean wrote:

Most of us had to make adjustments to continue to go. You just seem to still be so resentful of the move that you don't let yourself see the possibility of going to see for yourself how the changes would really affect you.


I removed a bunch of the other quote - because you're right. But, this one last sentence, to me, stuck out.

In actuality, the changes might not affect me one bit. They honestly wouldn't.

That doesn't mean I'm still not upset by them. In real life, I'm constantly upset by changes that have little-to-no direct impact upon me. I still rail against them. I've been called a lot of things in my life (good *and* bad) ... what I'm most proud of is that I've always been called "fair."

I do miss some of the people I used to see. I looked into starting a smaller con, to provide some meeting place for us to meet up, but the costs are prohibitive for such small groups (the pricing significantly drops when you hit that 1000 person mark). But, since then, I've also found others who are less-than-enthused with the move to no longer be a northeastern con; and they're looking to pool attendees (which would actually garner us enough). If that can come to fruition, I'll be happy. In the end, after 20 years of attending (and, for most of the first, say, 15, being an enthusiastic ambassador), the people that I gamed with the most are what I miss the most about the con.


natsean wrote:
If you want to maintain your indignation, come under a false name with a disguise and see how great the WBC still is. This way, nobody will see it is you similing and laughing your ass off and forgetting all about board politics.



LOL. As appealing as this is, I don't think I'd get away with it
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Max Jamelli
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Lemur wrote:



natsean wrote:
If you want to maintain your indignation, come under a false name with a disguise and see how great the WBC still is. This way, nobody will see it is you similing and laughing your ass off and forgetting all about board politics.



LOL. As appealing as this is, I don't think I'd get away with it



This really has to happen. Anyone who knows Chris - think of him with one of these and a trenchcoat on during a Santa Fe Rails heat:



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Glen Pearce
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Lemur wrote:



I do miss some of the people I used to see. I looked into starting a smaller con, to provide some meeting place for us to meet up, but the costs are prohibitive for such small groups (the pricing significantly drops when you hit that 1000 person mark). But, since then, I've also found others who are less-than-enthused with the move to no longer be a northeastern con; and they're looking to pool attendees (which would actually garner us enough). If that can come to fruition, I'll be happy. In the end, after 20 years of attending (and, for most of the first, say, 15, being an enthusiastic ambassador), the people that I gamed with the most are what I miss the most about the con.[/q]

I believe that you just stated the exact reason the con moved to where it did, the cost. Anything further east than Lancaster would've seen a doubling or more of the cost for people staying on or near the venue, plus a doubling or more of the cost of the con itself.

As for reason and transparency of the cancellation policy, Don has been *very* frank about it, and has attempted to have something like it in place for several years, stating such in his speeches at the General Meetings. It has been explained as to why it was put in place. It was warned about again last year that it would be in place for this year. He finally has a venue that is willing to go along with it and I do not expect any change once Ken Gutermuth takes over in 5 weeks. I personally wonder sometimes if the lack of help from the Host was due to their own increased benefit from penalizing the BPA, while still filling a lot of those rooms anyways.

Seven Springs is offering the entire hotel for pre-booking, unlike the Host. They are also facilitating the renting of many of the condos in the area. I understand that staying onsite (or very close by) has very large benefits, especially when travelling in groups. I personally am booked at a B&B that is a 15 minute drive away, which lends itself to being only truly useful to attendees like myself who are driving to the con from points elsewhere and are attending alone. But in doing this, I am saving over half of the cost of staying onsite.

If this is at all a possible way for you to continue coming to this convention, send me a geekmail and I will send you the details of that B&B, they still have some room left for that week (I was mostly alone there last year, and none of the other guests that did stay onsite during the con were attending).

I do not know you personally Chris, but I know you are passionate about your views, and those views as of right now do not align with the majority where this con is currently heading. I only wish that you could actually come out and see what the con is like at Seven Springs and have a direct experience to formulate those views on rather than your current bias and guesswork. If you come out again and still don't like it, I will stop trying to out-yell you and will quietly talk to some of the others that are as well.
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The Pariah
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gmpearce wrote:
[q="Lemur"]


I do miss some of the people I used to see. I looked into starting a smaller con, to provide some meeting place for us to meet up, but the costs are prohibitive for such small groups (the pricing significantly drops when you hit that 1000 person mark). But, since then, I've also found others who are less-than-enthused with the move to no longer be a northeastern con; and they're looking to pool attendees (which would actually garner us enough). If that can come to fruition, I'll be happy. In the end, after 20 years of attending (and, for most of the first, say, 15, being an enthusiastic ambassador), the people that I gamed with the most are what I miss the most about the con.




Glen,

I recognize your name too, obviously.

gmpearce wrote:
I believe that you just stated the exact reason the con moved to where it did, the cost. Anything further east than Lancaster would've seen a doubling or more of the cost for people staying on or near the venue, plus a doubling or more of the cost of the con itself.



Well, there is a huge difference between a 2000 person con and a 200 person one, obviously.

I also realized, early on, that I don't *need* 2000 people to enjoy myself. I need the handful of people I actually like I have/had no intentions to compete with WBC.


gmpearce wrote:

As for reason and transparency of the cancellation policy, Don has been *very* frank about it, and has attempted to have something like it in place for several years, stating such in his speeches at the General Meetings. It has been explained as to why it was put in place. It was warned about again last year that it would be in place for this year. He finally has a venue that is willing to go along with it and I do not expect any change once Ken Gutermuth takes over in 5 weeks. I personally wonder sometimes if the lack of help from the Host was due to their own increased benefit from penalizing the BPA, while still filling a lot of those rooms anyways.


Yes - I'm aware of that as well.

But (like everyone else here), you're overlooking the elephant in the room.

I agree that cancellations should be penalized (since the BPA suffers from that).

No one has provided any compelling reason why transfers should be lumped in? As I said - I get it ... it doesn't affect anyone else. To be sure, my own life would be far easier if I only concerned myself with things that directly affected me (but, Glen, you're Canadian ... isn't against the law there to only be concerned with things that directly affect you?)


gmpearce wrote:
I do not know you personally Chris, but I know you are passionate about your views, and those views as of right now do not align with the majority where this con is currently heading. I only wish that you could actually come out and see what the con is like at Seven Springs and have a direct experience to formulate those views on rather than your current bias and guesswork. If you come out again and still don't like it, I will stop trying to out-yell you and will quietly talk to some of the others that are as well.




I'd attended for 20 straight years. Enjoyed myself. I miss some people; I don't miss others. My not coming isn't entirely due to this policy (but rather, other changes (as well as in my own life) that make such a commute impossible.

For example, I'd stopped playing in tournaments (I tracked *every* game I played at WBC and my tourney gaming dropped dramatically). I've long said, "I'd rather lose every game and laugh my ass off while doing it; than win every game in miserable silence." In tournaments, that wasn't happening (but, I was able to have the experience in open gaming). Like I said, I'm not the target audience any longer.


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Matt Lee
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Lemur wrote:

natsean wrote:
If you want to maintain your indignation, come under a false name with a disguise and see how great the WBC still is. This way, nobody will see it is you similing and laughing your ass off and forgetting all about board politics.



LOL. As appealing as this is, I don't think I'd get away with it


Well, if you decided to only play Munchkin and Coloretto all weekend while in disguise, I bet you could!
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Joel Tamburo
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Just so we have it here, this is the actual wording of the policy:

"Reservations cannot be transferred to another party other than those initially named on the reservation. Any cancelled room will be returned to availability and subject to claim by the next party on the waiting list. This policy is designed to prevent early sellouts by those reserving rooms on speculation. While one person is responsible for the deposit payment, it is highly recommended that all occupants be named on the reservation so that in the event of one person having to cancel, other members of the reservation can assume credit and responsibility for that reservation without it being released back to the waiting list for general resale."

Note that it says to make sure to list all occupants on the reservation so that IF you need to transfer to one of them it is no issue. So, as long as everyone you might be transferring to is on the reservation (and of course that said number does not exceed occupancy) there is no issue.

In other words, what is prohibited is transferring a reservation to someone not already named on it.

And yes, the room speculation issue was constantly causing us to miss filling our room block. I trust our Board to know more about this than an anecdotal account of talking to a Host employee (who would not know the terms of our contract and if they did would not be permitted to discuss it with just anyone - contracts of this nature almost always are accompanied by NDAs - I have to sign about a dozen such every year in my position).
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The Pariah
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Joelist wrote:
Just so we have it here, this is the actual wording of the policy:

"Reservations cannot be transferred to another party other than those initially named on the reservation. Any cancelled room will be returned to availability and subject to claim by the next party on the waiting list. This policy is designed to prevent early sellouts by those reserving rooms on speculation. While one person is responsible for the deposit payment, it is highly recommended that all occupants be named on the reservation so that in the event of one person having to cancel, other members of the reservation can assume credit and responsibility for that reservation without it being released back to the waiting list for general resale."

Note that it says to make sure to list all occupants on the reservation so that IF you need to transfer to one of them it is no issue. So, as long as everyone you might be transferring to is on the reservation (and of course that said number does not exceed occupancy) there is no issue.

In other words, what is prohibited is transferring a reservation to someone not already named on it.

And yes, the room speculation issue was constantly causing us to miss filling our room block. I trust our Board to know more about this than an anecdotal account of talking to a Host employee (who would not know the terms of our contract and if they did would not be permitted to discuss it with just anyone - contracts of this nature almost always are accompanied by NDAs - I have to sign about a dozen such every year in my position).




I got bumped up from the front-line Host employee to someone who was familiar with our contract (presumably the sales manager for the convention). I wouldn't ask the reservation agent (although, to be honest, the hotel's practice was the same, either way ... remember, this change is *not* a hotel initiative). I wouldn't be putting forward information without it being well-researched. I wanted to ensure I was getting the correct information.

Transferring to someone *not* named on the reservation did NOT impact the BPA room block (at the Host). Unless the person was lying to me (and, of course, if they *were* lying, I'd want to know. I reached out *before* the practice was verboten, simply to ensure I wasn't doing things that put the BPA at risk; and I was told, I wasn't).
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Lemur wrote:
Stuff


and the process of naming helps prevent someone from creating a market for selling rooms. 'Cause gamers and a game. Like an addict or a gambler - if you put it in front of them, they will partake.

And I guess I'm a little flumoxed by your logistical struggles.

You state that you have gone to this Con for 20+ years? So, how isn't the plan, the participants, the dates, the stay not rounded down to one of two scenarios at this point in time? Do you you live in a commune where people disappear from year to year, or as you have indicated, are the unknown knowns so obvious that they really aren't a problem to guess at this point.

I am going to this once, and I already have a perfect idea of how the following year is going to pan out with first timers.

You are talking about 20 timers.
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Glen Pearce
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darthhugo wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Stuff


and the process of naming helps prevent someone from creating a market for selling rooms. 'Cause gamers and a game. Like an addict or a gambler - if you put it in front of them, they will partake.

And I guess I'm a little flumoxed by your logistical struggles.

You state that you have gone to this Con for 20+ years? So, how isn't the plan, the participants, the dates, the stay not rounded down to one of two scenarios at this point in time? Do you you live in a commune where people disappear from year to year, or as you have indicated, are the unknown knowns so obvious that they really aren't a problem to guess at this point.

I am going to this once, and I already have a perfect idea of how the following year is going to pan out with first timers.

You are talking about 20 timers.


I have seen his posts in other threads touching on this. His personal situation impinges on his ability to make the commitment of money and time necessary to return to the fold, and his argument for why he personally doesn't come anymore is honourable. He continues to participate in the discussions mostly because he still feels an attachment to this convention, something I consider a good thing.
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Istanbul
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I could see how a change in venue, location, and pricing coupled with an uncertain schedule and ability to attend a similar schedule from prior years would make planning difficult.

gmpearce wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Stuff


and the process of naming helps prevent someone from creating a market for selling rooms. 'Cause gamers and a game. Like an addict or a gambler - if you put it in front of them, they will partake.

And I guess I'm a little flumoxed by your logistical struggles.

You state that you have gone to this Con for 20+ years? So, how isn't the plan, the participants, the dates, the stay not rounded down to one of two scenarios at this point in time? Do you you live in a commune where people disappear from year to year, or as you have indicated, are the unknown knowns so obvious that they really aren't a problem to guess at this point.

I am going to this once, and I already have a perfect idea of how the following year is going to pan out with first timers.

You are talking about 20 timers.


I have seen his posts in other threads touching on this. His personal situation impinges on his ability to make the commitment of money and time necessary to return to the fold, and his argument for why he personally doesn't come anymore is honourable. He continues to participate in the discussions mostly because he still feels an attachment to this convention, something I consider a good thing.
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Kevin C.
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Quote:
My not coming isn't entirely due to this policy (but rather, other changes (as well as in my own life) that make such a commute impossible.


That's a shame. Like you, I really enjoy the open gaming of the convention. I treat tournaments like "scheduled open gaming." It's an opportunity to play games I like with people that already know the rules or I can go to a demo of a simple game and play right after that.

Open gaming rocks. The lighting is great now (as opposed to dinner theater lighting) and there is tons of space. I think I only saw it "full" on the second Friday and Saturday and there were still some tables available in the back by the demos.

I think you would love it.

You won't remember, but you and I had a nice conversation in the lobby of the Host a few years ago late at night. I remember it because you live in Ronkonkoma and I grew up in Wantagh, so we talked about the Island a bit.

You were also on your way to pick up a game you won at auction from a guy at a rest stop in Staten Island, I think it was. We joked about how that would look it the cops came up and your guys were exchanging money with the trunk open.

"No, officer, it's just Caylus. It's a worker placement game..well, the worker placement game that started a trend. Kind of dry, but some interesting mechanics. The point is it isn't crack...well, it kind of is because you will want to buy every worker placement game CSI has on sale after playing it, but not the crack you are looking for. Don't shoot me, please."

That kind of thing....

I really do think it is a shame you can't make it out. Even if you didn't make it with your old friends, you would probably meet some new ones. I certainly understand how the WBC is kind of an annual meeting of a special group of people that only see other during that week.

But just playing games around the clock with anyone for one week a year is kind of special.

I hope your circumstances changes in the future and you can make it one year. You won't be disappointed, I don't think.

Happy gaming,

Kevin

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Kevin C.
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Quote:
You are talking about 20 timers.


If you've never gone, you have no idea the difference. Lancaster is a tourist haven. When I started going years ago by myself, I stayed in the Knights Inn down about 2 miles on Lincoln Highway for $40/night. I ate super-cheaply and the whole shebang was a mere bag of shells.

Then, when my son started coming, I "upgraded" to the Red Roof Inn across the street: about $70/night. Food was still pretty cheap because...well, tourist haven. "Expensive" for us was the Applebee's. Budget was Wendy's $1 menu.

Oh, and since I live in Bethlehem, it was a hop, skip and a jump to Lancaster.

Point is, logistics took care of themselves because there was a surfeit of cheap options. That always makes planning easier.

Seven Springs is quite different. The closest cheap(er) hotel is about 20 min away in either Somerset or Donegal. As I said, I stayed across the street at Red Roof in Lancaster, which is pretty much "onsite."

Now, you absolutely need a car to stay off-site and you have to account for a 20-25 min drive there and back (on windy, creepy mountain roads) instead of 2 min walk. That can be a deal breaker for some people.

Price is also an issue. I brought a cooler with cold cuts, beer and soda and still was shocked by how much it cost this past year. We had to eat some meals at the resort, which as you might guess, charges resort prices.

I said above that I decided to spend more on an on-site condo this year because we had such a great time last year, I decided it was worth it. But there is still sticker shock compared to the halcyon days at the Host in terms of prices.

But if you are coming on any sort of budget, the hoops you have to jump through to save money compared to the last several years could be discouraging.

My point with all this blather is that there is no comparison for many of us from the Host to Seven Springs in terms of logistics. It's a whole new ball game with a whole new price tag.

I can totally understand vets of 20 years saying, "Screw that..3 more hours and hundreds more. No thanks." It takes work and planning to do this on a reasonable budget now, whereas before, it was a lark with cheap hotels across the street and cheap food a stone's throw away.

It was easier for people to go and plan before because the logistics were easier to handle. (So, not so much planning was needed, really.)

It's a shame you didn't get to see the Host. For many of us, part of the charm of the WBC is bitching about that place and how this joint is soooo much better, even if it is a bit more of a pain in the ass to pull off.

I'd like to meet you. We tangle in threads here from time to time, so it would be nice to actually pull off the "meet, have a beer and play some games" thing. I'll even let you have the really cold one from deep in the cooler.

Kevin
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I grew up in PA. I have spent more time in Lancaster than I care to remember. Bethlehem... it is where I purchased my first "Euro" in '79 - Vampyre by SPI. Lehigh U bookstore. I have also been to 7 Springs, falling water, and many other parts of PA. Lancaster does seem like a great place to hold a convention, but I can also imagine that costs alone to hold anything of the size of WBC must be very high, and thus the gravitation towards the Host... they were the day old bread on deep discount.

With that said, I have gamed in some nasty crap holes, filled with dripping ceilings, poor fluor lighting, poor temp regs, and rats. Yes, rats.

I have totally understand how this change from an affordable and convenient location to a more isolated and more expensive location could completely change someone's decision to attend. Especially for a veteran of a con that must feel more like family and in some ways, that they helped build.

Having watched the same thing happen to Origins, then AvalonCon, and now WBC - where it migrated and evolved, I know from reading all the articles (print), that each mutation lost some and gained some.

But at the heart of it, and this is just assuming the better nature of the managers of the Con, I don't see how or why their decisions would ever be vindictive, petty, or targeted towards any individual. They are product of facts, long term goals, and placing the Con's sustainability above all things.

I guess the discussion that was sidetracked came off to me as someone that is bummed, but is also trying to make it sound like they are being personally targeted due to a very sensible policy.

The emotion is understandable, but unless Lemur is hated by the Con organizers, and they said "How can we fuck Lemur over, real good?", I doubt that the decision is personal.

That doesn't make it easier on him or his group, but converting an action that isn't personal, into one that sounds like it is, just is in bad taste - in my opinion.


Also, I greatly appreciate all your AAR reports, recon about the surrounding areas, and all that data, because I read everything before locking in for my first visit. You are a good parent for bringing your children and if our schedules allow, it would be really nice to put a face to the many, many posts that I have read of yours going way back.

Safe travels this summer. Hope to see you there.



natsean wrote:
Quote:
You are talking about 20 timers.


If you've never gone, you have no idea the difference. Lancaster it a tourist haven. When I started going years ago by myself, I stayed in the Knights Inn down about 2 miles on Lincoln Highway for $40/night. I ate super-cheaply and the whole shebang was a mere bag of shells.

Then, when my son started coming, I "upgraded" to the Red Roof Inn across the street. About $70/night. Food was still pretty cheap because...well, tourist haven. High class for us was the Applebee's. Budget was Wendy's $1 menu.

Oh, and since I live in Bethlehem, it was a hop, skip and a jump to Lancaster.

Point is, logistics took care of themselves because there was a surfeit of cheap options. That always makes planning easier.

Seven Springs is quite different. The closest cheap(er) hotel is about 20 min away in either Somerset or Donegal. As I said, I stayed across the street at Red Roof in Lancaster, which is pretty much "onsite."

Now, you absolutely need a car to stay off-site and you have to account for a 20-25 min drive there and back instead of 2 min walk. That can be a deal breaker for some people.

Price is also an issue. I brought a cooler with cold cuts, beer and soda and still was shocked by how much it cost this past year. We had to eat some meals at the resort, which as you might guess, charges resort prices.

I said above, I decided to spend more on an on-site condo this year because we had such a great time last year, I decided it was worth it.

But if you are coming on any sort of budget, the hoops you have to do through to save money could be discouraging.

My point with all this blather is that there is no comparison for many of us from the Host to Seven Springs in terms of logistics. It's a whole new ball game with a whole new price tag.

I can totally understand vets of 20 years saying, "Screw that..3 more hours and hundreds more. No thanks." It takes work and planning to do this on a reasonable budget now, whereas before, it was a lark with cheap hotels across the street a cheap food a stone's throw away.

It's a shame you didn't get to see the Host. For many of us, part of the charm of the WBC is bitching about that place and how this joint is soooo much better, even if it is a bit more of a pain in the ass to pull off.

Kevin

Kevin
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Kevin Youells
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I paid 100 geek gold, and all I got was this lousy overtext
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darthhugo wrote:


With that said, I have gamed in some nasty crap holes, filled with dripping ceilings, poor fluor lighting, poor temp regs, and rats. Yes, rats.


So, you are familiar with the Host
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Kevin Youells wrote:
darthhugo wrote:


With that said, I have gamed in some nasty crap holes, filled with dripping ceilings, poor fluor lighting, poor temp regs, and rats. Yes, rats.


So, you are familiar with the Host


I have read my share of Lovecraft novels.

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Marty Sample
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darthhugo wrote:
Kevin Youells wrote:
darthhugo wrote:


With that said, I have gamed in some nasty crap holes, filled with dripping ceilings, poor fluor lighting, poor temp regs, and rats. Yes, rats.


So, you are familiar with the Host


I have read my share of Lovecraft novels.



I took a wrong turn one year and ended up in the dungeon where the semi functioning HVAC system was. I think I saw Shoggoth lurking.
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Marty S wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
Kevin Youells wrote:
darthhugo wrote:


With that said, I have gamed in some nasty crap holes, filled with dripping ceilings, poor fluor lighting, poor temp regs, and rats. Yes, rats.


So, you are familiar with the Host


I have read my share of Lovecraft novels.



I took a wrong turn one year and ended up in the dungeon where the semi functioning HVAC system was. I think I saw Shoggoth lurking.


You were lucky to get out with your sanity intact. Or did you?

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Grant LaDue
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Hey now! Shoggoth has standards, and the Host definitely wasn't up to them!
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Peter Stein
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darthhugo wrote:
Marty S wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
Kevin Youells wrote:
darthhugo wrote:


With that said, I have gamed in some nasty crap holes, filled with dripping ceilings, poor fluor lighting, poor temp regs, and rats. Yes, rats.


So, you are familiar with the Host


I have read my share of Lovecraft novels.



I took a wrong turn one year and ended up in the dungeon where the semi functioning HVAC system was. I think I saw Shoggoth lurking.


You were lucky to get out with your sanity intact. Or did you?



A highly debateable point.
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The Pariah
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natsean wrote:

That's a shame. Like you, I really enjoy the open gaming of the convention. I treat tournaments like "scheduled open gaming." It's an opportunity to play games I like with people that already know the rules or I can go to a demo of a simple game and play right after that.

Open gaming rocks. The lighting is great now (as opposed to dinner theater lighting) and there is tons of space. I think I only saw it "full" on the second Friday and Saturday and there were still some tables available in the back by the demos.

I think you would love it.


I used to view tournaments as scheduled open gaming - and, for a time, it was. But, again, with more people (and now, the *need* to win a heat to qualify for the next round (and the *importance* people place on that)) even early rounds became "un-fun" to me.

The open gaming space at 7 Springs does seem quite nice.


natsean wrote:

You won't remember, but you and I had a nice conversation in the lobby of the Host a few years ago late at night. I remember it because you live in Ronkonkoma and I grew up in Wantagh, so we talked about the Island a bit.

You were also on your way to pick up a game you won at auction from a guy at a rest stop in Staten Island, I think it was. We joked about how that would look it the cops came up and your guys were exchanging money with the trunk open.

"No, officer, it's just Caylus. It's a worker placement game..well, the worker placement game that started a trend. Kind of dry, but some interesting mechanics. The point is it isn't crack...well, it kind of is because you will want to buy every worker placement game CSI has on sale after playing it, but not the crack you are looking for. Don't shoot me, please."



Ha! Well, you're half-right I don't remember our conversation (sadly); but I remember your name/avatar from being on here (and, IIRC, I may have -- at one point -- helped convince you to attend (oh, irony!)

But, yes, you were spot on with me picking up the game. Funny story, that -- I committed to the purchase; and we arranged a pick-up location (with me calling en route to let him know I was nearing the spot). I called. And called. And called. And pulled over to a rest stop. And got a Starbucks. And called. And he never EVER picked up.

And then, he had the audacity to tell me that he had fallen asleep (okay); but he still considered my offer to "buy" to be binding ... so he would charge me $20 shipping to get me the game.

In not-so-polite terms, I believe I told him to bite me.

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darthhugo wrote:
But at the heart of it, and this is just assuming the better nature of the managers of the Con, I don't see how or why their decisions would ever be vindictive, petty, or targeted towards any individual. They are product of facts, long term goals, and placing the Con's sustainability above all things.


I never presume the better nature of anyone. In my son's school, the principal was told he wouldn't be receiving tenure (despite having made tremendous improvements to the school and community). Why? Well, the most popular rumor is that the president of the school board wants his wife to be the principal (despite the fact she spent fewer than two months as assistant principal at a small charter school, before quitting mid-year).

Yeah, I never presume a better nature of anyone.

darthhugo wrote:
I guess the discussion that was sidetracked came off to me as someone that is bummed, but is also trying to make it sound like they are being personally targeted due to a very sensible policy.


"Sensible"

BPA: So, we're going to charge a penalty on people who cancel their reservations, because we (the BPA) take a hit to our room block when that happens.
HOTEL: Sounds good and reasonable and yes, you're right, you do.
BPA: And, we're also going to forbid transferring the room.
HOTEL: Well, you don't actually take a hit to your room block when that happens.
BPA: Well, okay, but, we don't have the bandwidth to manage it.
HOTEL: Actually, we'll do that for you. It's part of our standard operating procedure.
BPA: Oh - well, whatever, let's just do it anyway.


darthhugo wrote:
The emotion is understandable, but unless Lemur is hated by the Con organizers


Let's not eliminate this as a possibility.

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Lemur wrote:
Let's not eliminate this as a possibility.



Do you seriously suspect that the rules for hotel reservations were specifically designed, vindictively, with you in mind?

Frankly, I am not thrilled about the new rules either, because I've already been bitten by them. A shared condo I was going to go in on fell through, so I made a regular hotel room reservation. The next day, a friend let me know there was another one available, and even if I had to eat the one-night penalty, it was a good deal. So I cancelled my room reservation, but even though it was within 24 hours, I was still essentially "fined" $140 for jumping the gun. I really think that's unnecessarily harsh - I wasn't engaging in "speculative reservations."

But it is what it is - I find it hard to believe the con committee is singling out people they personally dislike and saying "What's the best way to make the WBC miserable and inconvenient for so-and-so?"
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Lemur wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
But at the heart of it, and this is just assuming the better nature of the managers of the Con, I don't see how or why their decisions would ever be vindictive, petty, or targeted towards any individual. They are product of facts, long term goals, and placing the Con's sustainability above all things.


I never presume the better nature of anyone. In my son's school, the principal was told he wouldn't be receiving tenure (despite having made tremendous improvements to the school and community). Why? Well, the most popular rumor is that the president of the school board wants his wife to be the principal (despite the fact she spent fewer than two months as assistant principal at a small charter school, before quitting mid-year).

Yeah, I never presume a better nature of anyone.

darthhugo wrote:
I guess the discussion that was sidetracked came off to me as someone that is bummed, but is also trying to make it sound like they are being personally targeted due to a very sensible policy.


"Sensible"

BPA: So, we're going to charge a penalty on people who cancel their reservations, because we (the BPA) take a hit to our room block when that happens.
HOTEL: Sounds good and reasonable and yes, you're right, you do.
BPA: And, we're also going to forbid transferring the room.
HOTEL: Well, you don't actually take a hit to your room block when that happens.
BPA: Well, okay, but, we don't have the bandwidth to manage it.
HOTEL: Actually, we'll do that for you. It's part of our standard operating procedure.
BPA: Oh - well, whatever, let's just do it anyway.


darthhugo wrote:
The emotion is understandable, but unless Lemur is hated by the Con organizers


Let's not eliminate this as a possibility.



Look, we could run this race track until our hearts explode, which I won't do.

Can we at least agree that a mechanism to be used against gaming a system via speculative booking would be to prevent unfettered transfers to names not on the original reservation?

So, if that mechanism wasn't in place - I, a person that may not even attend, could theoretically book an entire wing of the hotel (if I had the resources to plunk down the downpayment). Then I could just sit back and dole out those rooms to needy attendees at an elevated price.

With the name on original reservation requirement, that "play" is off the table.

So, you are simplifying the concerns by focusing on the one that has only affected you, without respecting the many, many good reasons that it was implemented.

It is that myopia that I'm calling you out on, while trying to have some respect for your feelings, history, and personal story.

But, you don't seem to want to square that circle, because it would completely undermine your narrative - which is more telling of you than of the BPA.

So, nothing against you, personally. I feel for you. I'm just against your narrative and theories, which seem precarious and limited.



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I realize that the process of one person reserving multiple rooms and eventually filling them up with actual attendees does not technically cause the BPA or the hotel any problems.

Still... and I can only speak for myself personally, it has always rubbed me the wrong way. I guess when I am hoping to get a room, it feels wrong when I (and my family, for whom having a room at the hotel proper is really, really valuable) am ready to commit my money and vacation time, and yet I might conceivably be pre-empted by another theoretical person who is not ready to make the same commitment.

So believe me, I understand all the reasons why this did not violate any rules or standards in the past, but I must admit I'm not at all sorry to see the rule changed to what it is now. Perhaps that is unfair of me, but I just offer my opinion for what it's worth.

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AmadanNaBriona wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Let's not eliminate this as a possibility.



Do you seriously suspect that the rules for hotel reservations were specifically designed, vindictively, with you in mind?



Do I *seriously* suspect that? No - not really. But, you never know. It's not paranoia if it's true, right?


AmadanNaBriona wrote:
Frankly, I am not thrilled about the new rules either, because I've already been bitten by them. A shared condo I was going to go in on fell through, so I made a regular hotel room reservation. The next day, a friend let me know there was another one available, and even if I had to eat the one-night penalty, it was a good deal. So I cancelled my room reservation, but even though it was within 24 hours, I was still essentially "fined" $140 for jumping the gun. I really think that's unnecessarily harsh - I wasn't engaging in "speculative reservations."


And, we're still six MONTHS away from the con; some people haven't even thought about making a reservation yet (and, let's be honest, there's NO WAY that room isn't getting resold). Although, to be fair, you didn't transfer the room; you canceled it, which is different (and, which *does* have the potential to adversely affect BPA, although - again - six months in advance, seems unlikely).



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