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Subject: 7Springs minimum stay requirement rss

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Chris
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darthhugo wrote:
Can we at least agree that a mechanism to be used against gaming a system via speculative booking would be to prevent unfettered transfers to names not on the original reservation?

So, if that mechanism wasn't in place - I, a person that may not even attend, could theoretically book an entire wing of the hotel (if I had the resources to plunk down the downpayment). Then I could just sit back and dole out those rooms to needy attendees at an elevated price.

With the name on original reservation requirement, that "play" is off the table.

So, you are simplifying the concerns by focusing on the one that has only affected you, without respecting the many, many good reasons that it was implemented.


So, the fact that it's NEVER happened before -- in 20 (25?) years of the convention; necessitated an over-the-top draconian policy?

How do we know it hasn't happened before? Because we would've heard of it. That would've been the information that would've generated the buy-in and support for the move (because, as has been made abundantly clear throughout; no one (including me) said, "the BPA should suffer for an action I'm taking.")

But, it's never happened.

(And, quite honestly, if it had - is it really BPA's responsibility to manage the hotel? I don't know that I want/need BPA extending itself to managing the hotel reservation system -- that's why we *have* a hotel, right?)


darthhugo wrote:
It is that myopia that I'm calling you out on, while trying to have some respect for your feelings, history, and personal story.

But, you don't seem to want to square that circle, because it would completely undermine your narrative - which is more telling of you than of the BPA.

So, nothing against you, personally. I feel for you. I'm just against your narrative and theories, which seem precarious and limited.


Look, I get it -- this is the new reality. If something doesn't *directly* impact me, it's easier/better to simply tear it down as whining. And, like I said, it doesn't impact me now -- I'm not able to attend (regardless of whether the policy was in existence).

I'm not "squaring the circle" because there's no way to do that; without taking a giant leap. Yes, the new policy eliminates "ticket scalpers" -- which has never occurred at WBC.

Then again, we've never had a weapon of mass destruction at the convention either -- will all attendees be receiving gas masks at the ext con? At this point, it's probably even money which was a greater danger. (and, yes, I intend that to be preposterous; because, well, the whole thing is).

Feel free to be "against" my narrative and theories; but it's mighty audacious of you to portend to tell me how I *should* be feeling.




Epworthian wrote:
I realize that the process of one person reserving multiple rooms and eventually filling them up with actual attendees does not technically cause the BPA or the hotel any problems.

Still... and I can only speak for myself personally, it has always rubbed me the wrong way. I guess when I am hoping to get a room, it feels wrong when I (and my family, for whom having a room at the hotel proper is really, really valuable) am ready to commit my money and vacation time, and yet I might conceivably be pre-empted by another theoretical person who is not ready to make the same commitment.

So believe me, I understand all the reasons why this did not violate any rules or standards in the past, but I must admit I'm not at all sorry to see the rule changed to what it is now. Perhaps that is unfair of me, but I just offer my opinion for what it's worth.



Except, Rob - there's a lot of "ifs" in your equation. The person who made the room reservation actually *was* ready to make the same commitment; in fact, he or she made it before you did! I think people were amazingly suspicious of the "what if" component (which, actually, *never* happened).

But, here's the new scenario. You book your room. 50 days ahead of time, you get invited to a wedding; or (worse yet) something more depressing, closer to the con. Your friend says, "Hey, look, I don't have a room at the con (I'm out in Somerset) - I'll take your room; so you don't get nailed."

Oh, except you do - because you can't actually "transfer" the room to him; so now you're out $700+.

I'm *praying* the BPA is at least getting that money (that's another question that's yet to be answered, explicitly; although, I've been told they don't).
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Kevin C.
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Quote:
But, here's the new scenario. You book your room. 50 days ahead of time, you get invited to a wedding; or (worse yet) something more depressing, closer to the con. Your friend says, "Hey, look, I don't have a room at the con (I'm out in Somerset) - I'll take your room; so you don't get nailed."


I think you are right in the sense that this is a toss up between cynicism and optimism.

Is your scenario more likely or is it more likely that someone turns around and "sells" that room to someone else at a profit? Or a room that they had their brother get with the sole intention of selling at a profit?

I don't know the laws around innkeeping and such, but is there anything that could be done after the fact if someone was scalping rooms?

And maybe I misread it, but can't you transfer to people that you list on the reservation? I only take my kids, so I am the sole responsible person, but can't you put the potentials on there and avoid the fee?

I understand this doesn't help the random situation you describe, but maybe it is just easier for the BPA this way. It avoids any potential nasty situations but you are right that is does make on-the-fly plans impossible.

Kevin
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Chris
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natsean wrote:
Is your scenario more likely or is it more likely that someone turns around and "sells" that room to someone else at a profit? Or a room that they had their brother get with the sole intention of selling at a profit?


Impossible to answer. We just know it hasn't happened yet.

natsean wrote:
I don't know the laws around innkeeping and such, but is there anything that could be done after the fact if someone was scalping rooms?


Probably not - because, capitalism

natsean wrote:

And maybe I misread it, but can't you transfer to people that you list on the reservation? I only take my kids, so I am the sole responsible person, but can't you put the potentials on there and avoid the fee?

I understand this doesn't help the random situation you describe, but maybe it is just easier for the BPA this way. It avoids any potential nasty situations but you are right that is does make on-the-fly plans impossible.


The new policy does allow for that. But, like I said - the scenario I outlined (which actually *has* happened before) wouldn't be solved by that.

Three years ago (my second-to-last year I went) I had a kidney stone. I actually wasn't staying at the hotel (for a variety of reasons), but I also seriously considered not coming. If I had $700+ riding on it, I'd be driving there in pain. This seems to not be in anyone's best interest.

I suppose if I return, I'll just list Don's name on every reservation, so I have the option to transfer

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Kevin C.
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Quote:
Impossible to answer. We just know it hasn't happened yet.


You're right, but to be honest, it wasn't very likely to happen at the Host.

Who would pay a scalper's rate in Lancaster when 72,000 other hotels were within a stone's throw?

At this place, not staying on-site can be a dealbreaker. I stayed in Somerset last year and it was a pain. I saved money, but the 25 min ride there and back meant that we were pretty much stuck there all day.

Leaving for an hour nap meant an hour added to total travel time with that extra round-trip. Also, the kids schedule and mine didn't coincide. Staying on-site, whoever wanted to crash could have just gone back to the room.

The cooler didn't work out as well as I hoped either.

That can really make a difference to the whole convention experience. So much so that I got a condo for us this year. The schlep was too much, and downright scary on those roads after late-night games.

(Don't ask me what I am going to do when the BPA subsidized rate runs out or they do away with the 7-for-5 deal.)

So, I would have laughed at a scalper in Lancaster as I called any number of other hotels. Now, it is not out of the question that someone might pay a few hundred more to get that room.

This is all speculation, of course...maybe scalping had nothing to do with the decision. But I can see how the worry over something like this would be greater now that we are much more isolated.

I think other conventions are marred by lodging shenanigans and this might be the BPA's way of keeping the WBC as above-board and accessible as possible.

Kevin

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Chris
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natsean wrote:
Quote:
Impossible to answer. We just know it hasn't happened yet.


You're right, but to be honest, it wasn't very likely to happen at the Host.

Who would pay a scalper's rate in Lancaster when 72,000 other hotels were within a stone's throw?



I'd buy that -- that (more than anything else so far) makes sense.

Of course, the BPA approached the Host about enacting this policy; and the Host said no ... so, I'm still trying to figure out what the concern/suspicion is.

(I've long wondered what the sticker shock might be like once the subsidy and/or 7-for-5 runs out.)

Hell, BGG just sold advance tickets to people for over $1000 JUST to guarantee a room ...

(From what I know, most other cons don't have these issues - either they're MUCH bigger (ComicCon, Origins, GenCon ... BGG ...) and people play at a convention center. Or, they're much smaller and everyone gets a room) -- but that's anecdotal information).
 
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Kevin C.
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Quote:
From what I know, most other cons don't have these issues - either they're MUCH bigger (ComicCon, Origins, GenCon ... BGG ...) and people play at a convention center. Or, they're much smaller and everyone gets a room) -- but that's anecdotal information).


I think the BPA might be trying to straddle a line here. They want to be big enough such that attendance can grow and the convention is seen as destination gaming while being small enough such that potential attendees don't write it off because of ticket/hotel problems.

I never even considered PAX, for example, because of the crap involved in getting a ticket. Same with BGGCON. Dice Tower Con seems more accessible this year, but last year, tickets went quickly.

So, I don't want to have to think of a game convention like a popular music concert in terms of getting tickets or a room.

(I am making an exception for PAX Unplugged in that I'll try to get tickets, but only because it is 1 hour from my house.)

So, I think the BPA is just trying to take any sort potential nonsense out of the equation and make the logistics easy. I think they want to do their best to make it as accessible as possible to everyone.

Kevin
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Rob Flowers

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Well, I was trying to distinguish between the "financial" commitment from the "time" commitment (arranging vacation, child care, other logistics, passing up other opportunities for stuff during that same time period). To me, both are about equally valuable.

So whereas one person can reserve the room and make the financial commitment for others, in the situation described they are not able to make the time commitment for others. So those "others" have not made the same commitments I (and the others in my room) have.

But I can see how that's just nitpicking, so feel free to ignore.
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Marty Sample
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Chris, can you point to the place on the doll where the BPA touched you ? You've been beating the drum about this for YEARS about wanting to reserve multiple rooms ahead of time, then figure out much later - after the room block sells out - who will stay there. We get that it upsets you, as it prevents you and your group who can't seem or want to commit ahead of time from getting the most prime real estate. Strangely enough I know of other groups who have managed to attend for years without issue. Have you considered the chalets ? They are attached to the hotel, sleep a large number of folks, and AFAIK don't require more than a single name on the reservation. Of course, that person is responsible for the rate, which is commensurately larger than a single room.


You want to have your cake and eat it too. Yet many others - hell just about everyone else from what I can see, deal with this without the accusations of paranoia or the railing against the policies you've engaged in. Many, myself included, make reservations ahead of time knowing that if unable to attend, they will possibly incur a penalty. Its the price we pay for wanting the most desired spot - a connected room. If I could not get into the hotel itself, I'd be fine in a condo - I've heard very good things about them. But it would not prevent me from attending.

Lemur wrote:

(From what I know, most other cons don't have these issues - either they're MUCH bigger (ComicCon, Origins, GenCon ... BGG ...) and people play at a convention center. Or, they're much smaller and everyone gets a room) -- but that's anecdotal information).


Other conventions have issues with limited space for onsite housing. The BGG.Con hotel , which is where the convention is held, sold out of the prime nights EIGHT MINUTES after the room block opened.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1738795/bggcon-2017-hotel-i...

And an hour later, pretty much the whole thing sold out.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1740303/bggcon-2017-officia...

They do appear to have some sort of transfer policy in place.


GenCon, while much bigger, has similar issues with rooms connected to the convention center. They typically sell out more or less the same day they become available. While not familiar with the rules, given the huge demand, I would not be surprised to see hotels invoke some sort of fee for cancellations. They clearly have the demand.

Regardless of whether or not the BPA would incur a penalty for transferring rooms, they set the rules. To call the measure Draconian when you've been the only person to bring it up as a concern, repeatedly, is an overstatement IMO.

Lemur wrote:
AmadanNaBriona wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Let's not eliminate this as a possibility.



Do you seriously suspect that the rules for hotel reservations were specifically designed, vindictively, with you in mind?



Do I *seriously* suspect that? No - not really. But, you never know. It's not paranoia if it's true, right?



I have no reason to believe it is true. But if it is....given all the pot shots you've taken at the Board and its members over the years, I would hardly blame them .


Give it a rest. Please.
 
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Chris
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Marty S wrote:


(Lots of incendiary, offensive stuff -- brought up after the matter was - seemingly - closed)




I'm not attending any longer, so this is all irrelevant to me, directly. Doesn't mean I still don't care, though; and that I still won't call out things that are capricious and arbitrary.

I *do* know (going back to the OP) that the introduction of the no-transfer or you lose your money policy *is* costing them attendees (people I've spoken with who said, they simply won't come now because of that). While some may say it's a good policy, NO one is only coming *because* of it.

It's like when Chick-Fil-A announced their anti-gay stance. It was questionable, because no one was going to START going there, because of it (and, all it did was hurt their brand (although, they've since recovered, primarily by *undoing* everything)). Questionable.


Marty S wrote:
I have no reason to believe it is true. But if it is....given all the pot shots you've taken at the Board and its members over the years, I would hardly blame them .



I don't take "pot shots" - I don't name call. I operate transparently, above-board. I never turn it personal. If they're that thin-skinned, perhaps they shouldn't be in a leadership role.
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Matt Lee
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natsean wrote:

I never even considered PAX, for example, because of the crap involved in getting a ticket. Same with BGGCON. Dice Tower Con seems more accessible this year, but last year, tickets went quickly.


To be fair, the Pax conventions tend to be in very large, destination areas, so not counting the problems with getting tickets (which can sell out in less than an hour, although taking away the 3 day badges has made it easier to get Saturday passes within the first few hours), the nearby hotels fill up quickly, but the OnPeak system allows for transfers up to a couple of weeks prior to the con with no penalties, though direct transfers is less likely because a cancellation simply puts the room back into the public pool and those rooms get picked up quite fast.

Despite the popularity of the con and the possibility of scalping, I'd suggest that scalping here is less likely than Pax would be, and it does not happen there at all as far as I can see. I can't say I think that possibility really holds any kind of weight.

A hotel penalty for booking and canceling seems fairly outrageous, but there is one big point I have to give the BPA here and that is that the convention is over a full week+ and not just a 2-3 day weekend for attendees, so a cancellation would hit their negotiations much harder than a normal convention would. If a nearby room is cancelled a week before Pax, the demand is high enough that they hotel would happily get it taken by charging their normal rates. For a destination resort where the whole place is essentially used for a single purpose, demand would only skew towards attendees who would probably already have made alternate reservations at that point, leaving the room unused. I can;t say I'd blame them for worrying about that here.
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Kevin C.
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Quote:
To be fair, the Pax conventions tend to be in very large, destination areas, so not counting the problems with getting tickets (which can sell out in less than an hour, although taking away the 3 day badges has made it easier to get Saturday passes within the first few hours), the nearby hotels fill up quickly, but the OnPeak system allows for transfers up to a couple of weeks prior to the con with no penalties, though direct transfers is less likely because a cancellation simply puts the room back into the public pool and those rooms get picked up quite fast.


I agree with you here. I was just trying to get across the idea that the BPA might be going for a, "You want to come to the WBC, you will be able to come with no hotel or ticket hassles."

So, there isn't any sort of angst or real "strategy" involved in making plans like there is for some of these other conventions where attendance can depend on the speed of your internet connection or taking a day off from work.

It's just cleaner this way to me. The people reserving rooms fully intend to go and so if it fills up, it is because the convention is that popular to enthusiasts, not because of reservation games or speculation.

I understand to a person without a room it is the same result, but somehow this just seems above-board and pleasing to me.

And I'm in kind-of an opposite situation with PAX...I have a room for Unplugged and I'm having panic attacks over getting passes. The room took 30 seconds to reserve and is fully refundable. This is the way the system is set up, so I don't feel it is speculation. I would buy passes today if I could, but they don't go on sale for a few months. If I get passes, I'm going. If I don't, I'll cancel the room.

I'm grateful that the WBC is a convention without this sort of thing. Logistics are clean and easy in terms of reserving rooms and signing up to go. I think maybe the reservation policy is an attempt to keep it this way.

Kevin
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Michael Sosa
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What is this 7-5 deal?

I waited too long to reserve a room- the downpayment scared me from committing until I was sure, and now I have to figure out if I can attend for a few days since the hotel seems to be sold out online. Last year I did stay for the whole 9 days and regretted it. While the place is enjoyable, it really began to wear on me after a few days like Lancaster never did.
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Patrick Duffy

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7-5 is a condo booking in which you reserve a week but pay for five days.
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Chris
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Belisarius88 wrote:
What is this 7-5 deal?

I waited too long to reserve a room- the downpayment scared me from committing until I was sure, and now I have to figure out if I can attend for a few days since the hotel seems to be sold out online. Last year I did stay for the whole 9 days and regretted it. While the place is enjoyable, it really began to wear on me after a few days like Lancaster never did.



Are you sure it's sold out?

I thought the promise was "Anyone who wants a room will be able to get a room." That was one of the key advantages over Lancaster ....
 
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Kevin C.
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I thought the promise was "Anyone who wants a room will be able to get a room." That was one of the key advantages over Lancaster ....


I believe that includes all the accommodations Seven Springs offers.

There are still a bunch of condos available and the 1-bedroom ones are right on par with the price of the hotel.

Indeed, with the 7-5 deal on condos, it probably comes out cheaper. Or if not cheaper, right in the ballpark for a full-kitchen and extra space.

I went with a condo over the hotel because of this deal.

Kevin
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Patrick Duffy

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I am doing the condo as well. In addition to being less expensive, you have the option of having meals in the condo rather than paying the resort for every meal.

One question though. Did anyone use the shuttle bus to go to condos last year? Just wondering about its reliability.
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Daniel Blumentritt
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Quote:
I thought the promise was "Anyone who wants a room will be able to get a room." That was one of the key advantages over Lancaster ....


That was an advantage of Lancaster. It was never not possible to get a room within a 10 minute walk.
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Kevin C.
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That was an advantage of Lancaster. It was never not possible to get a room within a 10 minute walk.


Right, but has been said numerous times, that walk ended in a dump on the verge of condemnation.

Well, it actually was condemned last year after the water main break.

So, that advantage went by the wayside.

Kevin
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natsean wrote:
Quote:
I thought the promise was "Anyone who wants a room will be able to get a room." That was one of the key advantages over Lancaster ....


I believe that includes all the accommodations Seven Springs offers.

There are still a bunch of condos available and the 1-bedroom ones are right on par with the price of the hotel.

Indeed, with the 7-5 deal on condos, it probably comes out cheaper. Or if not cheaper, right in the ballpark for a full-kitchen and extra space.

I went with a condo over the hotel because of this deal.

Kevin


As soon as you stay more than 5 days the one bedroom condos are cheaper. This is because the price per bedroom per night is same as the hotel but the condos have the "7 nights for the price of 5" pricing.
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Daniel Blumentritt
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natsean wrote:
Quote:
That was an advantage of Lancaster. It was never not possible to get a room within a 10 minute walk.


Right, but has been said numerous times, that walk ended in a dump on the verge of condemnation.


Sure, I'm just saying the "you can all get rooms" is not some new situation that only 7S created.
 
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Grant LaDue
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It's probably more accurate to say "you can all get rooms from one source, rather than needing to know the ins and outs of the lancaster area". So, now all the rooms you get (condo or hotel) matter for the con's ability to negotiate in the future. At the Host, the rooms beyond the Host were largely meaningless for our negotiations with the location. This should be better for us, and for the location, going forward.
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Michael Sosa
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Got my 5 for 7 reservation! Wohoo!
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Belisarius88 wrote:
Got my 5 for 7 reservation! Wohoo!

You sound like someone I want at my table for any negotiation game.
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Are the hotel rooms completely booked? Im trying to stay Thursday to Sunday 27-30 and I can't find anything. Looks like best option is get a hotel 15 minutes out? And ideas?
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Don't know about the connected hotel, but the condos would be another option.
 
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