Martin Vetter
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WHEN YOU PLAY CASE 5, CORRECT ENTRY 5WC as follows:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

The caplog should read:
6:15pm 82 Hastings Street - 28 Lambeth Road
6:20pm 82 Travistock Place - 28 Lambeth Road
8:00pm 28 Lambeth Road - 44 Eaton Terrace
9:30pm 67 Elizabeth Street - 221 Baker Street
10:55pm 221 Baker Street - 76 Southampton Row



I think there is a serious mistake in this case. A mistake that lead us to the wrong conclusion even though we had the correct one in mind!:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The cap driver log 5WC on page 12 is just plane wrong!
Check the times with the map. It is not possible to do the travel as indicated.
- From Lambeth Road to Eaton Terrace is at least 45 minutes.
So how can the murderer take a new cap to Sherlock 30 minutes after, at 8:30??
- From Elizabeth Street to Baker street is at least 45 minutes again, but the murderer leaves baker street after 25 minutes, at 8:55?

In order for the log to make sense it should have read:
6:15pm 82 Hastings Street - 28 Lambeth Road
6:20pm 82 Travistock Place - 28 Lambeth Road
8:00pm 28 Lambeth Road - 44 Eaton Terrace
9:30pm 67 Elizabeth Street - 221 Baker Street
10:55pm 221 Baker Street - 76 Southampton Row


This is totally unaccaptable (or are we missing something)!!! We had the solution for a long time but thought it impossible due to the travel times. Honestly, this mistake is really unacceptable. How can we play future cases knowing that the time cannot be trusted. Come on!
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Kelly N.
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*subscribed*

I'll be watching for confirmation or correction while trying to avoid the spoilers. I haven't played yet, but I would like to know if this proves to be true or not.
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Craig Groff-Folsom
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I didn't even think to verify the travel times. That might just be my inexperience showing through.
 
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Martin Vetter
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For us it was gamebreaking. It ruined our experience totally. If you cannot trust the travel times then what to do! Of course we checked the travel times (isn't that what we are SUPPOSED to do!?) - and they CONTRADICTED the solution as presented. So we had to come up with an alternative, which simply wasn't there. We couldn't make any sense of it! That was cool while we played because we all looked forward to the solution. But when the solution was: "sorry guys, it was a huge mistake in the caplog", we felt so let down.
A really bad game experience for our group sadly. We don't trust this game anymore. It is really important in these kind of games that you can trust the information given to you. And this kind of mistake is unforgivable. I mean, it's in the FIRST case they recommend you try...How can we play on and trust it??? No way I can get them to play this game again. So the investment is wasted on the first case by a trivial mistake!
The game has so much promise but what is going on with this kind of mistake . I'm sadly a very unhappy customer.
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Craig Groff-Folsom
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My understanding of checking travel times is...
Spoiler (click to reveal)
...it is for verifying stories that suspects tell. A cab log should be considered "verified". If not, then how would you investigate the discrepancy? The book doesn't give the cabbie's name, right? Even if it did AND he's in the directory, there's no book entry.


The game will only give you so much to work with. If you're critically examining a piece of evidence and there are two ways to interpret it, but only one can be followed up on and the other can't, you have to trust the boundaries of the game.
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Martin Vetter
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I don't buy this!
Travel times are an integrated mechanism of the game. We interpreted it in the way that it must have been different persons taking the caps and not just one. The mechanics of the game actually supports this way of decuction. In the solution of case 5 it is clearly the intention that the caplog should track the movement of a SINGLE suspect.
So I fail to see how the caplog is not showing the movement of a suspect?

Let me illustrate:
- Assume it takes a suspect 60 minutes to get from point A to point B (using the ruler on the map).
- The suspect leaves point A at 8:00.
- A cap leaves point B at 8:30.

I hope we agree that in this case the suspect clearly CANNOT be in the cap!
That is the way travel works in the game.
The cap times in case 5 are ERRONOUS! They should show the movement of the relevant suspect, but they do not - because such movement is not possible by ONE person if you track the TIME it takes one person to do that movement (by foot, cap or any other kind of transportation as clearly stated in the rules).
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Raphael
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Subscribed as well. Hope we get an official answer soon.
 
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This is travel times BY FOOT! No cab would be this slow, even way-back-then.

Look at the map. I'd never need a cab if the cab is so slow. I've walked those streets. You can even traverse them quicker by foot than shown.

Its 'elementary, dear'.
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Chris Doody
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Slashdoctor wrote:
This is travel times BY FOOT! No cab would be this slow, even way-back-then.

Look at the map. I'd never need a cab if the cab is so slow. I've walked those streets. You can even traverse them quicker by foot than shown.

Its 'elementary, dear'.


This is not correct. The rule book states that using the map to calculate travel time ignores the mode of transportation.

From the rulebook: "In one of the corners of the map is a travel time duration scale. That scale will sometimes allow you to check the movements of some suspects and thus verify their alibi. To simplify the game, we'll consider their speed to be fixed, no matter which transport method is used" (2).
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chrisdoody wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
This is travel times BY FOOT! No cab would be this slow, even way-back-then.

Look at the map. I'd never need a cab if the cab is so slow. I've walked those streets. You can even traverse them quicker by foot than shown.

Its 'elementary, dear'.


This is not correct. The rule book states that using the map to calculate travel time ignores the mode of transportation.

From the rulebook: "In one of the corners of the map is a travel time duration scale. That scale will sometimes allow you to check the movements of some suspects and thus verify their alibi. To simplify the game, we'll consider their speed to be fixed, no matter which transport method is used" (2).


I think that's the case though. It makes sense if you consider mode of transportation different. But I guess rulebook messes this up. I didn't remember this and it made complete sense to me :/
 
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Martin Vetter
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Exactly. There is no way around it. The times in the caplog is a huge mistake. It destroys the case for those who actually deduce correctly, using the travel system as intended. :/
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Rob Wrigley
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I noticed this too, but didn't get to wrapped up in it. The course of travel that the itinerary suggests is pretty clear; even if they fudged it a bit with the time.

I'm going to go ahead and say, this is not a game for rules lawyering. In fact, I barely consider this thing a game. It's non-linear detective fiction.
 
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Martin Vetter
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robwrigley wrote:
I noticed this too, but didn't get to wrapped up in it. The course of travel that the itinerary suggests is pretty clear; even if they fudged it a bit with the time.

I'm going to go ahead and say, this is not a game for rules lawyering. In fact, I barely consider this thing a game. It's non-linear detective fiction.


I don't understand. This is not rules-lawyering! The times are off by 2 HOURS! :O First we thought it might be a mistake - but of course it could not be. It must have been intentional. We are supposed to pick up these kind of things when we play a DEDUCTION game aren't we?? So we deduced that it could not have been the same person taking the caps.

We are taking the travel rules seriously - as I think one should expect of anyone playing this game. That is afterall what we are supposed to do - deduce logically from the facts given. And travel time is a main part of the logic of the case, which unfortunately is just wrong in this case. :/
That's the problem, really. That the solution is impossible with the given facts.
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magikerendk wrote:
robwrigley wrote:
I noticed this too, but didn't get to wrapped up in it. The course of travel that the itinerary suggests is pretty clear; even if they fudged it a bit with the time.

I'm going to go ahead and say, this is not a game for rules lawyering. In fact, I barely consider this thing a game. It's non-linear detective fiction.


I don't understand. This is not rules-lawyering! The times are off by 2 HOURS! :O First we thought it might be a mistake - but of course it could not be. It must have been intentional. We are supposed to pick up these kind of things when we play a DEDUCTION game aren't we?? So we deduced that it could not have been the same person taking the caps.

We are taking the travel rules seriously - as I think one should expect of anyone playing this game. That is afterall what we are supposed to do - deduce logically from the facts given. And travel time is a main part of the logic of the case, which unfortunately is just wrong in this case. :/
That's the problem, really. That the solution is impossible with the given facts.


It's just rulebook that is wrong, they forgot to catch it. Thus I will continue playing taking into account that map scale speed is for on-foot movement. If you remove that weird rule simplification, the whole case makes sense.
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Martin Vetter
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Slashdoctor wrote:
magikerendk wrote:
robwrigley wrote:
I noticed this too, but didn't get to wrapped up in it. The course of travel that the itinerary suggests is pretty clear; even if they fudged it a bit with the time.

I'm going to go ahead and say, this is not a game for rules lawyering. In fact, I barely consider this thing a game. It's non-linear detective fiction.


I don't understand. This is not rules-lawyering! The times are off by 2 HOURS! :O First we thought it might be a mistake - but of course it could not be. It must have been intentional. We are supposed to pick up these kind of things when we play a DEDUCTION game aren't we?? So we deduced that it could not have been the same person taking the caps.

We are taking the travel rules seriously - as I think one should expect of anyone playing this game. That is afterall what we are supposed to do - deduce logically from the facts given. And travel time is a main part of the logic of the case, which unfortunately is just wrong in this case. :/
That's the problem, really. That the solution is impossible with the given facts.


It's just rulebook that is wrong, they forgot to catch it. Thus I will continue playing taking into account that map scale speed is for on-foot movement. If you remove that weird rule simplification, the whole case makes sense.


But it is very important to get official clarification here!
How can we play the future cases without knowing where the error is?
Is it with the rules or the caplog times in the specific case? I think it is an error in the case and that the time simplification is how it is supposed to work.
If you look at the 3 first entries in the caplog they work fine with the printed timescale. It's only the last two that are mistaken.
 
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magikerendk wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
magikerendk wrote:
robwrigley wrote:
I noticed this too, but didn't get to wrapped up in it. The course of travel that the itinerary suggests is pretty clear; even if they fudged it a bit with the time.

I'm going to go ahead and say, this is not a game for rules lawyering. In fact, I barely consider this thing a game. It's non-linear detective fiction.


I don't understand. This is not rules-lawyering! The times are off by 2 HOURS! :O First we thought it might be a mistake - but of course it could not be. It must have been intentional. We are supposed to pick up these kind of things when we play a DEDUCTION game aren't we?? So we deduced that it could not have been the same person taking the caps.

We are taking the travel rules seriously - as I think one should expect of anyone playing this game. That is afterall what we are supposed to do - deduce logically from the facts given. And travel time is a main part of the logic of the case, which unfortunately is just wrong in this case. :/
That's the problem, really. That the solution is impossible with the given facts.


It's just rulebook that is wrong, they forgot to catch it. Thus I will continue playing taking into account that map scale speed is for on-foot movement. If you remove that weird rule simplification, the whole case makes sense.


But it is very important to get official clarification here!
How can we play the future cases without knowing where the error is?
Is it with the rules or the caplog times in the specific case? I think it is an error in the case and that the time simplification is how it is supposed to work.
If you look at the 3 first entries in the caplog they work fine with the printed timescale. It's only the last two that are mistaken.


I just disagree with you. I don't think there is any need for official clarification, since it does not actually mean the information given by the game is wrong. It's 19th century, the log might easily have a human error in it.
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I will agree that it would be nice with official clarification. I don't see why anyone would be againsy it.

I summon Paul Grogan
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Dave Neale
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The travel times do make sense if it is by foot. I would suggest proceeding with that as the assumption, and cabs will be faster. I played all the original West End cases (and all other original expansions) with that idea in mind, and I don't recall coming across anything that contradicted it.
 
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David Stevens
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I took the travel times as a means to corroborate an alibi.

"That scale will sometimes allow you to check the movements of some suspects and thus verify their alibi."

Seeing as there was no alibi to check in this case then confirming the travel times was pointless

Chalk it up to a human error when logging and move on

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Now if the brother insisted it was impossible to travel back and forth murdering everyone in sight because "look I couldn't get there in time per the cab logs" then you'd have a point but he didn't do that so imo it's needless worrying due to hyperactive sleuthing
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Kelly N.
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Boiling Denim wrote:
I took the travel times as a means to corroborate an alibi.

"That scale will sometimes allow you to check the movements of some suspects and thus verify their alibi."

Seeing as there was no alibi to check in this case then confirming the travel times was pointless


Oh, yes ndeed! Yes, I will search for any explanation that results in a non-brain burning exercise.
 
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Martin Vetter
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Boiling Denim wrote:
I took the travel times as a means to corroborate an alibi.

"That scale will sometimes allow you to check the movements of some suspects and thus verify their alibi."

Seeing as there was no alibi to check in this case then confirming the travel times was pointless

Chalk it up to a human error when logging and move on

Now if the brother insisted it was impossible to travel back and forth murdering everyone in sight because "look I couldn't get there in time per the cab logs" then you'd have a point but he didn't do that so imo it's needless worrying due to hyperactive sleuthing


All of us actually thought it was intentional! When it is off by 2 hours it seems relevant to deduce something from it!
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Kelly N.
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magikerendk wrote:
Boiling Denim wrote:
I took the travel times as a means to corroborate an alibi.

"That scale will sometimes allow you to check the movements of some suspects and thus verify their alibi."

Seeing as there was no alibi to check in this case then confirming the travel times was pointless

Chalk it up to a human error when logging and move on

Now if the brother insisted it was impossible to travel back and forth murdering everyone in sight because "look I couldn't get there in time per the cab logs" then you'd have a point but he didn't do that so imo it's needless worrying due to hyperactive sleuthing


All of us actually thought it was intentional! When it is off by 2 hours it seems relevant to deduce something from it!


For sure your deduction skills magnified and highlighted an issue with the game. I will approach the cases with a much "dumber" outlook, especially as it pertains to travel time.
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I join the summoning circle to summon Paul Grogan.
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Mark Turner
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I have not clicked on anything here, but as someone who has just ordered this game, do people agree with the OP that I should make an amendment before playing?
 
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MrMT wrote:
I have not clicked on anything here, but as someone who has just ordered this game, do people agree with the OP that I should make an amendment before playing?


I still have not played my copy yet. I was waiting for a consensus here. But it looks like that is not coming. That being said, I plan on playing this week. When I do, I will approach it as was suggested above and now quoted here...

whitescar wrote:
The travel times do make sense if it is by foot. I would suggest proceeding with that as the assumption, and cabs will be faster. I played all the original West End cases (and all other original expansions) with that idea in mind, and I don't recall coming across anything that contradicted it.
 
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