Colin Taylor
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With my new found knowledge of the VC and US bot instructions, I wanted to continue the series, this time with the ARVNbot. I chose the ARVNbot next, as I'm still not ready for NVAbot. Note, I use Suspected still here, despite being confident on them, as there is no official ruling as yet.

ARVN - Patrol
Bullet 1 - Suspected Binary - "Move Police when possible then ARVN Troops, as needed to reach LoC or City destinations below, first from spaces with the most ARVN cubes." *Note, though it uses "most", I believe this to be Binary. Reasoning is that if it were Continuous, there would be no need for "first" in the instruction.

Bullet 2 - Suspected Binary - "First, move cubes onto any LoCs with NVA/VC Guerrillas until ARVN cubes each LoC equal 3, beginning with those LoCs nearest to Saigon (otherwise randomly)."

Bullet 3 - Suspected Binary - "Then move cubes to Cities as needed to have all Cities possible under COIN Control, 3 total US or ARVN cubes or Special Forces, and at least 1 US or ARVN Troop and 1 Police, first to the highest Population Cities."

Bullet 4 - Confirmed Binary - "Then free Assault to remove the most pieces possible, otherwise on a random LoC." *Note, like USbot free Assault during Patrol, though it looks like it's Continuous, only 1 space is required, so essentially Binary.

ARVN - Assault
Bullet 2 - Uncertain - "Then so as to reduce the most NVA-Controlled and add the most COIN-Controlled Population..." *Note, this one is tricky. There are subsequent conditions, but they would be unaffected if this was Continuous. Then again, I believe that zero Control would be a valid selection here, which would lean towards Binary. My guess is Binary, but am not 100% on this.

Bullet 4 - Suspected Binary - "• Finally, to remove 2 or more enemy pieces per space, first where possible to remove the most enemy pieces." *Note, as with Patrol Bullet 1 above, uses "most", but in conjunction with "first", so I think it's Binary.

ARVN - Sweep
Bullet 1 - Suspected Binary - "First, Sweep with ARVN cubes and Rangers in place where there are Underground VC or NVA Guerrillas—first where either Active or Passive Support, then where the Underground Guerrillas include any VC, then at the highest Population, then randomly."

Bullet 3 - Suspected Continuous - "First move Troops into the above selected Sweep spaces so as to Activate the most Underground Guerrillas possible, within that so as to add the most COIN Controlled Population possible."

Bullet 3 cont. - Suspected Continuous - "First move Troops into the above selected Sweep spaces so as to Activate the most Underground Guerrillas possible, within that so as to add the most COIN Controlled Population possible."

Bullet 4 - Confirmed Binary - "Finally move Troops into 1 added space (if not yet at 3 Sweep spaces total). Do so to add the most COIN Controlled Population possible..."

ARVN - Govern
Bullet 1 - Uncertain - " Govern in the highest Population spaces where possible to transfer Aid to Patronage." *Note, another tricky one. "Highest Population" should be Binary. But would the ARVN potentially limit the number Govern spaces if the US was at Victory? However, considering the wording from Bullet 2 below, which I believe to be Continuous, and the fact that the same wording was not used here, my guess is Binary.

Bullet 2 - Suspected Continuous - " If the US is a Non-player or is not at victory per above, instead take the most Patronage possible (from 1 or 2 spaces)..."

Bullet 3 - Confirmed Binary - " Then, if Govern occurred in exactly 1 space (and shaded “Mandate” is not in effect), or if Aid is at 0, add Aid from the highest Population space(s) possible."

ARVN - Transport
Bullet 1 - Confirmed Binary - "Transport first from a Laos or Cambodia space with such pieces, then from the South Vietnam space with the most ARVN Troops above those needed to keep COIN Control."

Bullet 3 - Confirmed Binary - "Among such Provinces, or if there is no such reachable space, move so as to change Control of highest Population space possible."

ARVN - Raid
Bullet 3 - Uncertain - "Select target spaces first to remove any (unTunneled) Bases, then to remove the most NVA Control plus add the most COIN Control possible, then to remove the most Underground Guerrillas possible, finally randomly." *Note, uncertain for the same reason as Assault Bullet 2.

Bullet 3 cont. - Suspected Continuous - "Select target spaces first to remove any (unTunneled) Bases, then to remove the most NVA Control plus add the most COIN Control possible, then to remove the most Underground Guerrillas possible, finally randomly."

Phew, a lot of text there, but I added a fuller description of each example than I did for VC/US.

Thanks,

Colin
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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ColintheFlea wrote:
With my new found knowledge of the VC and US bot instructions, I wanted to continue the series, this time with the ARVNbot. I chose the ARVNbot next, as I'm still not ready for NVAbot. Note, I use Suspected still here, despite being confident on them, as there is no official ruling as yet.

ARVN - Patrol
Bullet 1 - Suspected Binary - "Move Police when possible then ARVN Troops, as needed to reach LoC or City destinations below, first from spaces with the most ARVN cubes." *Note, though it uses "most", I believe this to be Binary. Reasoning is that if it were Continuous, there would be no need for "first" in the instruction.

Same as in USbot Patrol, i.e., continous. And just as with USbot Patrol, the main effect is to reduce the number of random space rolls to pick the next origin space - while Patrol isn't free for ARVN, it only costs a flat 3 Resources no matter how many spaces it affects.

It still needs the "first", BTW: without that "first", the instruction would be to draw Patrol forces only from the space or spaces with the (same) largest number of ARVN cubes...
Quote:
Bullet 2 - Suspected Binary - "First, move cubes onto any LoCs with NVA/VC Guerrillas until ARVN cubes each LoC equal 3, beginning with those LoCs nearest to Saigon (otherwise randomly)."

The bold part is pretty explicitly binary; the initial "First,"... well, OK, I guess that is technically a binary choice too - "LoCs with NVA/VC Guerrillas" vs "LoCs with no Guerrillas at all" It corresponds to the initial "Then" in the third bullet.
Quote:
Bullet 3 - Suspected Binary - "Then move cubes to Cities as needed to have all Cities possible under COIN Control, 3 total US or ARVN cubes or Special Forces, and at least 1 US or ARVN Troop and 1 Police, first to the highest Population Cities."

Binary. The last "Cities" would be better written as "City", since there is only one City each for the two highest Pop ratings so the only time there could be multiple "highest Pop Cities" is when only Pop-1 Cities lack COIN Control

Quote:
ARVN - Assault
Bullet 2 - Uncertain - "Then so as to reduce the most NVA-Controlled and add the most COIN-Controlled Population..." *Note, this one is tricky. There are subsequent conditions, but they would be unaffected if this was Continuous. Then again, I believe that zero Control would be a valid selection here, which would lean towards Binary. My guess is Binary, but am not 100% on this.

Continous. As discussed in the VCbot post, "most Control" refers to the overall Control value as tracked on the Edge Track, not to any single space (and yes, 0 is a valid value... though we may need to come up with a better way of distinguishing between "changing Control of a Pop-0 space" and "not changing Control of any space" ). Note that neither of the subsequent bullets need to change any Control to apply: destroying the last remaining insurgent pieces in spaces that are already COIN Controlled, and removing 2+ enemy pieces from a space even though doing so would not change Control.

Quote:
Bullet 4 - Suspected Binary - "• Finally, to remove 2 or more enemy pieces per space, first where possible to remove the most enemy pieces." *Note, as with Patrol Bullet 1 above, uses "most", but in conjunction with "first", so I think it's Binary.

Binary.

Quote:
ARVN - Sweep
Bullet 1 - Suspected Binary - "First, Sweep with ARVN cubes and Rangers in place where there are Underground VC or NVA Guerrillas—first where either Active or Passive Support, then where the Underground Guerrillas include any VC, then at the highest Population, then randomly."

Binary.

Quote:
Bullet 3 - Suspected Continuous - "First move Troops into the above selected Sweep spaces so as to Activate the most Underground Guerrillas possible, within that so as to add the most COIN Controlled Population possible."

Bullet 3 cont. - Suspected Continuous - "First move Troops into the above selected Sweep spaces so as to Activate the most Underground Guerrillas possible, within that so as to add the most COIN Controlled Population possible."

Both correct. This bullet isn't about selecting Ops spaces, but how to move Troops into any or all of the Sweep spaces that have already been selected by ARVNbot Sweep bullet 1.

Quote:
Bullet 4 - Confirmed Binary - "Finally move Troops into 1 added space (if not yet at 3 Sweep spaces total). Do so to add the most COIN Controlled Population possible..."

Yep; selecting 1 space is binary by default.

Quote:
ARVN - Govern
Bullet 1 - Uncertain - " Govern in the highest Population spaces where possible to transfer Aid to Patronage." *Note, another tricky one. "Highest Population" should be Binary. But would the ARVN potentially limit the number Govern spaces if the US was at Victory? However, considering the wording from Bullet 2 below, which I believe to be Continuous, and the fact that the same wording was not used here, my guess is Binary.

My intent was continous, though you're right that the rulebook text doesn't say so (the flowchart does). Fortunately the only time there's any difference between "continous" and "binary" in this bullet is when it is possible to Govern for Patronage in exactly 1 Pop-2 space and at least 1 Pop-1 space.

Quote:
Bullet 2 - Suspected Continuous - " If the US is a Non-player or is not at victory per above, instead take the most Patronage possible (from 1 or 2 spaces)..."

Definitely continous, and uses the phrasing that should have been used in bullet 1 as well.

Quote:
Bullet 3 - Confirmed Binary - " Then, if Govern occurred in exactly 1 space (and shaded “Mandate” is not in effect), or if Aid is at 0, add Aid from the highest Population space(s) possible."

Yep, binary. (Though looking at it for the revision, it would be better if it said "Govern so as to add the most Aid possible" instead - i.e., changing the Aid-0 case to continous.)

Quote:
ARVN - Transport
Bullet 1 - Confirmed Binary - "Transport first from a Laos or Cambodia space with such pieces, then from the South Vietnam space with the most ARVN Troops above those needed to keep COIN Control."

Binary by default, since Transport can only select a single origin space.

Quote:
Bullet 3 - Confirmed Binary - "Among such Provinces, or if there is no such reachable space, move so as to change Control of highest Population space possible."

Correct. (...not least since the bullet only selects 1 space.)

Quote:
ARVN - Raid
Bullet 3 - Uncertain - "Select target spaces first to remove any (unTunneled) Bases, then to remove the most NVA Control plus add the most COIN Control possible, then to remove the most Underground Guerrillas possible, finally randomly." *Note, uncertain for the same reason as Assault Bullet 2.

Continous, for the same reason as Assault Bullet 2.

Quote:
Bullet 3 cont. - Suspected Continuous - "Select target spaces first to remove any (unTunneled) Bases, then to remove the most NVA Control plus add the most COIN Control possible, then to remove the most Underground Guerrillas possible, finally randomly."

Continous is correct.

Regards,
Oerjan
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Colin Taylor
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Thanks again for the clarifications. Most are clear now. Just a couple of follow ups.

Oerjan wrote:
Quote:
ARVN - Patrol
Bullet 1 - Suspected Binary - "Move Police when possible then ARVN Troops, as needed to reach LoC or City destinations below, first from spaces with the most ARVN cubes." *Note, though it uses "most", I believe this to be Binary. Reasoning is that if it were Continuous, there would be no need for "first" in the instruction.

Same as in USbot Patrol, i.e., continous. And just as with USbot Patrol, the main effect is to reduce the number of random space rolls to pick the next origin space - while Patrol isn't free for ARVN, it only costs a flat 3 Resources no matter how many spaces it affects.

It still needs the "first", BTW: without that "first", the instruction would be to draw Patrol forces only from the space or spaces with the (same) largest number of ARVN cubes...


But like USbot Patrol, these instructions are referring to origin spaces, of which the bot may not need to take from all of them. Therefore, even though free/flat fee, order could matter.

Also, I think I am still reading "first" as an indicator of there also being an "elsewhere". But it's now clear that "most" versus "at highest Pop" is the main differentiator between Binary and Continuous. I shouldn't use "first" as a clue for Binary.

Oerjan wrote:
Quote:
Bullet 2 - Suspected Binary - "First, move cubes onto any LoCs with NVA/VC Guerrillas until ARVN cubes each LoC equal 3, beginning with those LoCs nearest to Saigon (otherwise randomly)."

The bold part is pretty explicitly binary; the initial "First,"... well, OK, I guess that is technically a binary choice too - "LoCs with NVA/VC Guerrillas" vs "LoCs with no Guerrillas at all" It corresponds to the initial "Then" in the third bullet.


Sorry, I was only referencing the bolded part. I'm pretty sure I understood the "First...", though I suppose it doesn't hurt to make sure.

Oerjan wrote:
Quote:
ARVN - Assault
Bullet 2 - Uncertain - "Then so as to reduce the most NVA-Controlled and add the most COIN-Controlled Population..." *Note, this one is tricky. There are subsequent conditions, but they would be unaffected if this was Continuous. Then again, I believe that zero Control would be a valid selection here, which would lean towards Binary. My guess is Binary, but am not 100% on this.

Continous. As discussed in the VCbot post, "most Control" refers to the overall Control value as tracked on the Edge Track, not to any single space (and yes, 0 is a valid value... though we may need to come up with a better way of distinguishing between "changing Control of a Pop-0 space" and "not changing Control of any space" ). Note that neither of the subsequent bullets need to change any Control to apply: destroying the last remaining insurgent pieces in spaces that are already COIN Controlled, and removing 2+ enemy pieces from a space even though doing so would not change Control.


OK, so that is interesting. Yes, there is a subtle difference in "no Control change" and "changing Control at Pop-0". So in this case, some sort of Control MUST occur to be a valid target, but it could be at a Pop-0 space. Is that correct? I was assuming that spaces where no Control change would still be valid here, but now i see the difference.

Thanks,

Colin
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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ColintheFlea wrote:
Thanks again for the clarifications. Most are clear now. Just a couple of follow ups.

Oerjan wrote:
Quote:
ARVN - Patrol
Bullet 1 - Suspected Binary - "Move Police when possible then ARVN Troops, as needed to reach LoC or City destinations below, first from spaces with the most ARVN cubes." *Note, though it uses "most", I believe this to be Binary. Reasoning is that if it were Continuous, there would be no need for "first" in the instruction.

Same as in USbot Patrol, i.e., continous. And just as with USbot Patrol, the main effect is to reduce the number of random space rolls to pick the next origin space - while Patrol isn't free for ARVN, it only costs a flat 3 Resources no matter how many spaces it affects.

It still needs the "first", BTW: without that "first", the instruction would be to draw Patrol forces only from the space or spaces with the (same) largest number of ARVN cubes...


But like USbot Patrol, these instructions are referring to origin spaces, of which the bot may not need to take from all of them. Therefore, even though free/flat fee, order could matter.

Also, I think I am still reading "first" as an indicator of there also being an "elsewhere".

Yep; the "then elsewhere" implication is precisely why this particular "first" is there.

Quote:
Oerjan wrote:
Quote:
ARVN - Assault
Bullet 2 - Uncertain - "Then so as to reduce the most NVA-Controlled and add the most COIN-Controlled Population..." *Note, this one is tricky. There are subsequent conditions, but they would be unaffected if this was Continuous. Then again, I believe that zero Control would be a valid selection here, which would lean towards Binary. My guess is Binary, but am not 100% on this.

Continous. As discussed in the VCbot post, "most Control" refers to the overall Control value as tracked on the Edge Track, not to any single space (and yes, 0 is a valid value... though we may need to come up with a better way of distinguishing between "changing Control of a Pop-0 space" and "not changing Control of any space" ). Note that neither of the subsequent bullets need to change any Control to apply: destroying the last remaining insurgent pieces in spaces that are already COIN Controlled, and removing 2+ enemy pieces from a space even though doing so would not change Control.


OK, so that is interesting. Yes, there is a subtle difference in "no Control change" and "changing Control at Pop-0". So in this case, some sort of Control MUST occur to be a valid target, but it could be at a Pop-0 space.

That was the intent, yes: if the bot can't change Control in Pop-1+ spaces (i.e., reducing NVA and/or increasing ARVN VPs), it checks if it can change Control in Laos/Cambodia to threaten the Trail (or in Phuoc Long, if there are any enemy pieces there...). Spaces where the Assault can't change any Control at all are (intended to be) handled by the other three bullets instead (Bases, last enemy piece, 2+ pieces).

Regards,
Oerjan
 
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Colin Taylor
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Oerjan wrote:
ColintheFlea wrote:
Thanks again for the clarifications. Most are clear now. Just a couple of follow ups.

Oerjan wrote:
Quote:
ARVN - Patrol
Bullet 1 - Suspected Binary - "Move Police when possible then ARVN Troops, as needed to reach LoC or City destinations below, first from spaces with the most ARVN cubes." *Note, though it uses "most", I believe this to be Binary. Reasoning is that if it were Continuous, there would be no need for "first" in the instruction.

Same as in USbot Patrol, i.e., continous. And just as with USbot Patrol, the main effect is to reduce the number of random space rolls to pick the next origin space - while Patrol isn't free for ARVN, it only costs a flat 3 Resources no matter how many spaces it affects.

It still needs the "first", BTW: without that "first", the instruction would be to draw Patrol forces only from the space or spaces with the (same) largest number of ARVN cubes...


But like USbot Patrol, these instructions are referring to origin spaces, of which the bot may not need to take from all of them. Therefore, even though free/flat fee, order could matter.

Also, I think I am still reading "first" as an indicator of there also being an "elsewhere".

Yep; the "then elsewhere" implication is precisely why this particular "first" is there.


Then I'm confused. If there is an implied "then elsewhere", it would be Binary, i.e. look for the spaces with the most ARVN cubes only, then randomly from other spaces (just like "at highest Population"). If Continuous, it would essentially be "descending by number of ARVN cubes". There would be no need for a "then elsewhere", as all possible spaces would be covered.

Thanks,

Colin
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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As I wrote above, without this "first" the instruction would be to ONLY draw Patrol forces from the space(s) with the (same) highest number of excess cubes. The "then elsewhere" implication here allows it to draw forces from spaces with fewer spare cubes as well from those with the most such cubes.

Regards,
Oerjan

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Colin Taylor
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Understood. But, just like the No Control Change vs Control Change at Pop0, there is a subtle difference.

With Binary, i.e. "First XXX, then elsewhere", you search for only the spaces that satisfy XXX. Then, every other eligible space is selected from randomly.

With Continuous, one is essentially saying "descending/ascending by XXX". Therefore, you look for the spaces that best satisfy XXX, and once acted upon, you look for the next best. The result is that there is no "then elsewhere", as all spaces are somewhere on a continuum for XXX. I think that is what you intend for Patrol, i.e. where most ARVN pieces, then the next most, etc... That would be different from "then elsewhere", at least as I have defined the terms for my own usage. That is where I was confused.

Thanks,

Colin
 
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